Klonopin - A Cost Benefit Analysis

[Danny13]

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[Jay1]

There are very few people that would be able to stay on benzos for life AND get relief. Tolerance soon comes and you will need 3,4,5,6mg to find any relief and then, after that, you will be taking huge amounts just to stave off withdrawals.

Hopefully some of our ex-benzo users can chip in here.... But to me, long term benzo use is just adding one problem on top of another.... It is unsustainable, so you will be left with hppd and a huge battle with addiction/withdrawal.

It is a magic bullet, when used occasionally and that is something you can do for life.... That is the way it should be used by hppd sufferers, imho.

[zukov]

maybe some day someone create a non addictive benzo. Actually i thinks that's possible to make but the great business behind the pharmaceutical industry.....

Klonopin its the only thing so far that's give me a little of space and "ground feeling" and mostly of the time the dose are 0.5 or 1mg, two times a week.

I read somewhere about a russian suplement who interact with GABA's like benzo and isnt addictive called Picamilon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon

[Merkan]

Think of it like this, people taking psychedelics reading about our horror stories but never get it. We are the unlucky few who get long term symptoms. Same with benzo users. A few, those who you hear about, are the unlucky ones.

Not everyone gain tolerance from benzos but even if you do, with Clonazepam its a bit different. The benzo effect might fade but the action on the 5-HT2 receptors remain. I have talked to some people with EP that takes 5mg of Clonazepam for years without any issues, some discontinued the use after years but only had WD issues during a couple if months and then were perfectly fine (well, except seizures:) ) Then got back on with no issues. Of course we have a bad GABA function to begin with so WD will be tougher on us.

[nepuinthesky]

maybe some day someone create a non addictive benzo. Actually i thinks that's possible to make but the great business behind the pharmaceutical industry.....

Klonopin its the only thing so far that's give me a little of space and "ground feeling" and mostly of the time the dose are 0.5 or 1mg, two times a week.

I read somewhere about a russian suplement who interact with GABA's like benzo and isnt addictive called Picamilon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picamilon

i think somebody posted a new drug which is developed somewhere on this forum. it acts like a benzo without the addiction but i cant remember the name maybe he will post it again. i think it was called nonbenzo or something like this^^

[Jay1]

Think of it like this, people taking psychedelics reading about our horror stories but never get it. We are the unlucky few who get long term symptoms. Same with benzo users. A few, those who you hear about, are the unlucky ones.

I think that is an over optimistic view.... the vast majority of long term benzo users will get addiction and withdrawal problems, not the minority (like lsd to hppd).

[Merkan]

Of course, the WD is there but as Dr.A say, if you have HPPD Clonazepam in a controlled dose with possible WD, looking at the whole picture is a no brainer. The WD can be one of the worst of all substances but once you are threw there is no desire to get back on it unless the underlying condition has a strong manifastation and isn't possible to treat in any other way.

I think that is an over optimistic view.... the vast majority of long term benzo users will get addiction and withdrawal problems, not the minority (like lsd to hppd).

[zukov]

Nepuinthesky: I read a lot on google about experience of people with that soviet pill picamilon. 50% works, 50% not effect at all. At my country is very hard to find that, but in the US you can buy it. Would be wonderful if someone give a try. Is quite interesting and cheaper.

If picamilon works like klonopin on my, i make a big party

[nepuinthesky]

Nepuinthesky: I read a lot on google about experience of people with that soviet pill picamilon. 50% works, 50% not effect at all. At my country is very hard to find that, but in the US you can buy it. Would be wonderful if someone give a try. Is quite interesting and cheaper.

If picamilon works like klonopin on my, i make a big party

yeah man i looked it up sound interessting but i cant get them here too maybe an american should try.

here are the drugs i meant:

http://en.wikipedia....nbenzodiazepine

very similar to benzos but they seem to be less addictive than a benzo seems they are in use today and not under development

[Jay1]

unfortunatly, nonbenzos are just as addictive. At first, people hoped they were the miracle we are all waiting for.... But trials showed otherwise.

The amount of people addicted to the Z sleeping pills is huge.

[Jay1]

if you have HPPD Clonazepam in a controlled dose with possible WD, looking at the whole picture is a no brainer.

I think it is the opposite of a no brainer.... People should think long and hard about going onto a benzo, long term. Learning to deal with hppd without medication is very important and one of the main reasons I now lead a fairly good life.

Personally, I only think HPPD sufferers should use benzos long term if they are close to giving up and killing themselves.

[nepuinthesky]

unfortunatly, nonbenzos are just as addictive. At first, people hoped they were the miracle we are all waiting for.... But trials showed otherwise.

The amount of people addicted to the Z sleeping pills is huge.

i read that too a couple of minutes ago^^ but maybe there are a few advantages as well instead of using long term benzos on a daily basis.

Nonbenzodiazepines have demonstrated efficacy in treating sleep disorders. There is some limited evidence that suggests that tolerance to nonbenzodiazepines is slower to develop than with benzodiazepines. However, data are limited so no conclusions can be drawn. Data are also limited into the long term effects of nonbenzodiazepines. Further research into the safety of nonbenzodiazepines and long term effectiveness of nonbenzodiazepines has been recommended in a review of the literature.^[3] Some differences exist between the Z-drugs, for example tolerance and rebound effects may not occur with zaleplon

The first three nonbenzodiazepine drugs to enter the market were the "Z-drugs", zopiclone, zolpidem and zaleplon. These three drugs are all sedatives used exclusively for the treatment of mild insomnia. They are safer than the older barbiturates especially in overdosage and they may, when compared to the benzodiazepines, have less of a tendency to induce physical dependence and addiction, although these issues can still become a problem. This has led to the Z-drugs becoming widely prescribed for the treatment of insomnia particularly in elderly patients.^[5][6][7] Long term use is not recommended as tolerance and addiction can occur.^[8] A survey of patients using nonbenzodiazepine Z drugs and benzodiazepine hypnotic users found that there was no difference in reports of adverse effects which were reported in over 41% of users and, in fact, Z drug users were more likely to report that they had tried to quit their hypnotic drug and were more likely to want to stop taking Z drugs than benzodiazepine users. Efficacy also didn't differ between Z drugs and benzodiazepine users.^[9]

seems not to be the best way to handle it but maybe its an alternative to the other benzos because of the tolerance although this isnt really a fact only a suggestion.

[Merkan]

Well, we will obviously have a disagreement here. Possibly due to different empirical experience with HPPD (and possibly life?).

If you can make it without Clonazepam, then its great indeed but my standpoint is why suffer threw life from what i call an ethic dilemma. I do however agree with you that every one that gets HPPD should try techniques to overcome HPPD without any meds. What complicate things is that Dr.A did a case study that implied that setting in a dose if Clonazepam at the onset for some months could make some symptoms diminish permently.

But its everyones choice how to deal with their situation.

I think it is the opposite of a no brainer.... People should think long and hard about going onto a benzo, long term. Learning to deal with hppd without medication is very important and one of the main reasons I now lead a fairly good life.

Personally, I only think HPPD sufferers should use benzos long term if they are close to giving up and killing themselves.

[2muchmandy]

Klono causes a great deal of confusion with me. Some days I feel great. No visuals, feel strong. Other days bad patterny snow. Paranoia and I think I need a fucking med right now. I thibj if I was gunna get benzos itd be how u do it jay. S small dose rarely

[Jay1]

Merkan, i'm certainly not belittling your choice and understand where you are coming from.

But there is a huge chance that you will have to suffer through life without klono, at some point or another. It simply isn't a long term option for most (I really hope you are one of the few that can stay on this drug without getting tolerance)....

For most hppd sufferers though, If they choose the klono route straight away... They will have a few years of relief, then a very long battle with withdrawal.... then an equally long, and probably much harder battle to adjust to life with hppd without klono again.

As for what Dr.A says, I'm afraid I just don't agree with him on that..... He is obviously very informed on the subject but that doesn't mean he is always 100% right., there is nothing to sugest that those people who got better were not just naturally healing. We have so many people who come on here and get better after 3-6 months, it is so common that you have to think it happened also many times on whatever klono trial Dr.A did too.... the natural conclusion would be "klono can help people recover".... in my mind it is simpler "time can help people recover".

Anyway, it is all personal choice, there is no right or wrong way to treat this..... All I ask is that people research ALOT before starting any meds.

[gill]

I've taken Picamilon and found no benefit for HPPD.

[WuWei]

I've been taking Klonopin (mostly) daily for over 10 years. My dosage has not gone up (I take on average between .25 and .75 mg daily as needed) and I'm not addicted to it. My script is for .5mg every 8 hours as needed, but I rarely if ever take that much. Klonopin is the least addictive of all benzos and is the first line treatment for HPPD.

I may be in the minority, and I really don't have a pull towards benzo's addiction wise, so YMMV. A lot of days I only take it once... a .25mg dose to help me sleep... I only take it during the day for DP/DR symptoms or moderate to severe anxiety and I take care not to develop a tolerance to it.

Just wanted to throw it out there.

[1998]

''Klonopin is the least addictive of all benzos''

You're a 100% wrong, klonopin is just as addicting as xanax and even more then most.

The fact Dr. Ashton uses valium to help ppl get off klonopin is just an example.

You should really read up on that before posting this. It could make ppl decide to go on klono thinking it's not as addictive and change their lives forever!

I've seen plenty of doctors that think xanax is stronger then klonopin which is sad, just a shorter half life so more likely for abuse.

I have a love hate relationship w/ klono like most. In my earlier yrs. as Jay pointed out I only took it because I was suicidal. So it was the best decision ever for me to go on this med short term. But then doctors convinced me it's not too hard to come off and even though I knew they were wrong I wanted to believe them. I've read only 50% of ppl have problems getting off klono but they dont have hppd for the most part.

''Of course we have a bad GABA function to begin with so WD will be tougher on us.'' I truly believe this to be the case Merkan!!

As of now I take klonopin, depakote, gabapentin, zanaflex, tramadol and clonidine to help w/ the tramadol w/d's I get everynight. (close to getting off this tramadol supposively non- addicting which is bullshit extremely addictive) But I've felt better then I have in yrs and I know gabapentin, zanaflex along w/ hard core exercise have really helped me. The best thing about gabapentin besides helping w/ pain and my sleep cycle, is I have no desire to drink alcohol. Even when I do I feel sick, I read up on that and some doc's actually prescribe gabapentin to help alcoholics not drink because the combo makes you sick.

K off to work I go Later all!

[Merkan]

Remember that the Ashton protocol is old, very old and its not the "bible" people talking about. Its just that its the only one out there with some recognition. I've spoken to EP-patients who WD 5 mg of Clonazepam with very slight WD. Whatever people say, its individual how you react. It is your call if you wanna try it. Consult your doc. and address all your concern instead of consulting opinions on the internet. That goes for most things except disorders like HPPD

[rollingregret]

Remember that the Ashton protocol is old, very old and its not the "bible" people talking about. Its just that its the only one out there with some recognition. I've spoken to EP-patients who WD 5 mg of Clonazepam with very slight WD. Whatever people say, its individual how you react. It is your call if you wanna try it. Consult your doc. and address all your concern instead of consulting opinions on the internet. That goes for most things except disorders like HPPD

Merkan and Jay, I feel like half of me sides with each of you on the subject. I think what needs to be considered is what the symptoms of your hppd are. I would guess that most of us don't really care about visuals as much as the physical symptoms and associated anxiety-related issues that arise concomitantly with hppd onset (such that they are inseparable).

My hppd is largely physical and after years of klonopin use (successful until a nasty taper attempt), it has become very hard to determine if I still have physical hppd or if reducing my benzos is pure benzo WD. How can one determine this? Benzo WD without hppd induces the exact symptoms one uses klonopin to eradicate. So now that I've gone through this process of reducing (unsuccessfully), I don't know if it's due to the inability of my GABA system to recover (as in a normal benzo withdrawal situation), or if it is that I have reached a dose (by lowering) where the original symptoms remain and are not not being treated (Akin to an epileptic reducing meds below their threshold).

A few things I've learned from personal experience:

- tolerance doesnt occur for everyone and honestly I don't even think it's leaning one way or another by any statistical measure (lack of evidence). People don't post much about not developing tolerance. Before my cuts, I was happy and didn't even consider that the benzo was a problem. That said, people do develop tolerance although I think it's a very complex issue as I've found from my tapering.

- tapering a benzo that has worked terrifically for you for many years just might be the worst decision you can make if not done properly. This is my situation. I cut according to Ashton's guidelines with the intent of seeing if i could reduce and it has f'd me up good (month 9 now). I've had to increase my original dose from 4 to 5 (after going from 4 to 2.75) to feel somewhat normal and I can tell you I still don't feel completely normal (but hopefully getting there). This is DEF a benzo problem. Can't stress enough how even if benzos work great for you, be very careful reducing them. My system is in such disarray from the cuts and from not correcting them soon enough that my whole response to klonopin (previously amazing) has been changed for the worse. I'm not sure I'll ever get back to where I used to be in terms of them effectively eliminating my hppd with no dose escalation.

- so on one hand I initially had a great response to klonopin for years. No tolerance. Great drug. On the other hand, upon my doctor trying to reduce me (IMO too fast), I have now developed a horrible battle with the drug that could have been avoided by just sticking to the dose that was working for me.

Again the question arises:

If you decide to taper your benzo and you develop horrible hppd symptoms, what do you conclude- is it benzo WD, the fact that your original hppd is not being treated or a bit of both?

My wish: if I stabilized and felt great like I had all those years before an then was able to (maybe over the course of a year) taper down to ~2mg. Yep, for me that would be a success.

All has to do with the sensitivity of your receptors and that's an individual thing I guess. I could stay on them long term and I don't think I would develop tolerance. Bad benzo management, however, is a recipe for disaster. Now, I don't know how to plan the rest of my life knowing that I may have cooked my goose with the only drug that allowed me to live after getting HPPD + inducing benzo WD. How do I plan a career? Can I ever have a relationship, get married, have kids? Again, all this due to a taper gone wrong (and ftr nothing drastic by Ashton stds), not the inevitability of tolerance.

Just FTR: klonopin DID save my life. I was suicidal (1 year with debilitating hppd before I got on it and my life fell apart). Once I was prescribed, completed a phd in medical bioscience (though the tail end was spent in this taper mess spiral). Couldn't be where I am without it, just hoping to return to a stable point. Also, previously (after testing, not reckless abandon), I could drink on klonopin with ZERO extra effect. It didn't get me drunker not give me terrible hangovers. Klonopin was literally like a silent angel. Of course this is not the norm for most people (and isnt advised), but again, individual responses. Also i wasnt abusing it or anything, just drinking like an average (?) person. Now, don't think I should ever drink again and won't barring a miracle recovery. GABA system fried.