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Wondering if anyone has experiences relating to neurosteroids ? 

Neurosteroids are just hormones and hormone metabolites that influence brain function.  To illustrate: estradiol levels affect memory, testosterone enhances goal orientation and focus, the DHT metabolite 3α-Androstanediol is know to have "rewarding, anxiolytic, pro-sexual, and anticonvulsant effects" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3α-Androstanediol

The topic CAN be an IS complicated.  Here is an excellent text regarding neurosteroids and seizures: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3728472/  .  Of course its relevance here is that HPPD is a constant pre-seizure state and HPPD at times responds to GABA alterations and neurosteroids actually modulate and can activate GABA receptors but don't loose effectiveness such as taking a benzodiazapine does.

I PROPOSE THAT THIS IS A KEY AREA OF RESEARCH THAT HAS NOT BE EXPLORED FOR HPPD.  Certainly hormone manipulations, particularly DHT and DHT derivatives substantially help my visual issues and other issues.  DHT is not only a "positive allostatic GABA modulator", it also has strong influence with D2 receptor function (a personal nemesis).  This subfunction relates to reading social cues and I suspect may related to DP/DR.

Now rather than make this complicated or get hung up regarding the technicalities of the subject, it comes down to does anyone notice effects from medication or changes in:

  1. Estrogen
  2. Testosterone
  3. DHT
  4. Progesterone
  5. DHEA
  6. Cortisol
  7. Oxitocin
  8. Finisteride
  9. Anastrozole

The list is not exhaustive but these are major players.  Here is a bigger list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neurosteroids

Thank you for your paticipation

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@VisualDude no experience using neurosteroids - I was on enough of them as a baby having been born 3 months premature. 😂

On an unrelated but related note - has HPPD destroyed your ability to read and respond to subtle social cues? Mine certainly has, however my doc has diagnosed it as borderline personality disorder or a complication from being born premature.

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Yea, you were probably on cortisol as it helps lungs and things in that case.  I was a little pre and had breathing problems for 4 months (turn blue and needed to be revived).  Don't know all what that did but it could not have helped, lol.

My social cue thing is genetic from my dad's side but I have it worse.  So never have known otherwise.  Kind of autistic like but not that.  The visual damage was from a chemical exposure.  Eyesight was great before.  However other problems were magnified.  I do well with dopamine meds and a little gabapentin and klonopin.  One dopamine med, cabergoline, gave me the first taste of reading social cues besides the 'loud' ones like anger.  Cabergoline is a strong D2 agonist.  Recently, DHT further help visual problems and introduced feeling emotions that I began 'reading'.  Cabergoline helped just the intellectual aspect.  Curiously, DHT also influences D2 receptor function.

Can't help wondering if others would benefit at least regarding DP/DR and some visual aspects of HPPD.  Sexual function as well.  Can I really be so unique?  It would seem unlikely.

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Wow thats actually really funny. I've said that exact thing too... kind of like a little autistic but not really. Don't mean to derail the topic but I read that little bit, and in my head im thinking wow I thought I was the only one.

I got it from my dad as well. Like a little tiny neurological blip in the way my brain functions that causes me to be extremely highly functional but also completely cognitively ignorant of social cues, and behaviours - or hints. I just don't respond and carry on as if it hadn't happened.

(Mine became 10x worse when I got HPPD versus before I had it)

Edited by jbalsa2

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Maybe we're related, lol.  Some of my ancestors were follower of Joseph Smith (Mormon) who practiced polygamy.  So with polygamy, must be related to the whole Caucasian population (they were racist so only whites) at least from a cousin standpoint.  There was a Swedish member here who had similar med response and I do have some Scandinavian.  But who knows.

The social thing is real pain in the butt.  Ironically, my best friend had an autistic boy so it probably made it easier to be around me.  Unfortunately he moved away.  With DHT I began to understand others behavioral response toward me and it makes me cringe with embarrassment as the problems were my own making.  But at least I know now and never had tried to be a jerk, it just came natural, lol.  At times the flood of emotions was overwhelming.  Had to discontinue but due to plasticity, the brain now has a reference and I retain some benefit.  This makes the third med that changed things permanently, the others being Sinemet and cabergoline.  I still need them overall but at lower doses.  So the whole 'feeling' thing motivated me to start this thread.

The blip you mention involves D2 receptors though no doubt much more.  So you can try to Google stuff regarding D2, dopamine, social function, etc.   And might find some good stuff to contribute.  If you live outside the USA, you might find stuff we can't get here.  A couple Docs told me that when they travel overseas, they can get a lot more info on the internet.  Apparently content is somewhat controlled here - so much for the illusion of freedom.

Genetics can influence med responses.  You would have to try some of the same things to see.  Its hard to get doctor to prescribe.  Took 6 years to get cabergoline and longer to get DHT.

I've taken Keppra and its very sedative.  Unfortunately for me the dose needed to be increased and then when decreasing, muscle spasms return with a vengeance.  It has to do with acytlecholine.

[Addendum] Re: Genetics.  There were a couple hundred people exposed to the toxin that damaged me.  But only 4 developed overt neurological problems.  A pattern that may be involved involves dopamine.  I have always had moderate ADD.  Another fellow affected also had moderate ADD.  A lady affected had severe ADD.  And the last person had early Parkinson's disease.  So the toxin seems to have affected mainly those with dopamine functional defects that are genetic.

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Lmao what I read "My dad might be my sisters uncle but I have some swedish and scandinavian in there" hahaha. Just kidding of course.

Yeah my dad has it in a much more noticeable way, but his doesn't cause him the social impairment that mine causes me. For what it's worth a tiny bit of cocaine makes me much more socially functional, to a point, but if I exceed a certain amount it has the opposite effect. Sadly my doctor just tells me that like any other illness, borderline personality disorder exists on a spectrum and I just happen to be on the more affected side of that spectrum. It was like pulling teeth getting him to prescribe me keppra, and he downright refuses to let me try naltrexone.

Yeah i'm on keppra 1000mg/day, and it makes me extremely somnolent, like so tired I struggle to lift my limbs out of my seat if I have to get up. But as time goes on my body gets more accustomed to it and i'm not as tired. Keep in mind that process has taken many months.

What toxin were you 'exposed' to if you don't mind my asking? Under what circumstance?

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What toxin were you 'exposed' to if you don't mind my asking? Under what circumstance?

It was something like rubber-cement glue that affixes commercial carpet to concrete.

I don't believe Caucasians are racists, except when there's personal hate involved.

Was referring to Mormons.  They used to believe the dark skin was a curse from God because of Cain.  Perhaps their belief system has changed since my mother was one.

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On 12/16/2018 at 7:24 PM, Jagermeister said:

I'm taking Dexamethasone 1mg each week. It's so so amazing for me... Make my brain fog dissapear for literally 3-5 days.

I got the dexamethasone by myself.

Where did you get it?

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On 12/16/2018 at 3:41 PM, VisualDude said:

What toxin were you 'exposed' to if you don't mind my asking? Under what circumstance?

It was something like rubber-cement glue that affixes commercial carpet to concrete.

I don't believe Caucasians are racists, except when there's personal hate involved.

Was referring to Mormons.  They used to believe the dark skin was a curse from God because of Cain.  Perhaps their belief system has changed since my mother was one.

I would love more info about your hypothesis.

I do think that Dopamine D2 is THE thing for HPPD.

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On 12/13/2018 at 8:45 AM, VisualDude said:

Wondering if anyone has experiences relating to neurosteroids ? 

Neurosteroids are just hormones and hormone metabolites that influence brain function.  To illustrate: estradiol levels affect memory, testosterone enhances goal orientation and focus, the DHT metabolite 3α-Androstanediol is know to have "rewarding, anxiolytic, pro-sexual, and anticonvulsant effects" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3α-Androstanediol

The topic CAN be an IS complicated.  Here is an excellent text regarding neurosteroids and seizures: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3728472/  .  Of course its relevance here is that HPPD is a constant pre-seizure state and HPPD at times responds to GABA alterations and neurosteroids actually modulate and can activate GABA receptors but don't loose effectiveness such as taking a benzodiazapine does.

I PROPOSE THAT THIS IS A KEY AREA OF RESEARCH THAT HAS NOT BE EXPLORED FOR HPPD.  Certainly hormone manipulations, particularly DHT and DHT derivatives substantially help my visual issues and other issues.  DHT is not only a "positive allostatic GABA modulator", it also has strong influence with D2 receptor function (a personal nemesis).  This subfunction relates to reading social cues and I suspect may related to DP/DR.

Now rather than make this complicated or get hung up regarding the technicalities of the subject, it comes down to does anyone notice effects from medication or changes in:

  1. Estrogen
  2. Testosterone
  3. DHT
  4. Progesterone
  5. DHEA
  6. Cortisol
  7. Oxitocin
  8. Finisteride
  9. Anastrozole

The list is not exhaustive but these are major players.  Here is a bigger list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_neurosteroids

Thank you for your paticipation

I had all of those tested an am currently injecting testisterone and dht, lmk if you came up with anything. I can get access to caber as well. Update us on.any progress in regards to this.

Edited by josht9210

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Any thoughts on this medication as a possible means to ameliorate HPPD?

 

How do these neurosteroid drugs relieve depression?

The drugs are mildly sedating. They interact with GABA receptors in the brain. GABA is the major inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brains of all mammals, so an agent that augments GABA can be sedating. In fact, the biggest challenge with brexanalone for postpartum depression is the potential for excessive sedation. Sleepiness also affected some of the patients who took SAGE-217, but that's not necessarily bad because sleep disturbances are a big problem in depression and in a range of psychiatric illnesses. The drug may relieve depression at lower doses, without causing the sedation that was seen in some patients in the clinical trial, but that needs to be tested.

https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2019-11-neurosteroid-antidepressants-horizon.html


 

 

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@Visual Dudes post - I really love this and feel it is definitely key. A researcher was saying just the other day that the feels HPPD is a form of epilepsy / related to seisure activity etc

It would be very good to share visuals post with him.

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Can someone get him to come back and update? @Jay1 @David S. Kozin I'm really curious to see where this lead him.

Theres a lot of studies out there about the effects of hormones on neurotransmitters...

Dht alone is very powerful for your sense of well being.. I have been injecting Drostanolone (masteron) bayer has a version not fda approved called proviron 

Progesterone is a natural anti convulsant and effects gaba etc.. 

I have access to many hormone derivatives and I am willing to expierement on myself, so far testosterone + dht has been quite interesting, I am still on paxil and this will be the first time in 10 years I've introduced a new medication (test/dht) so when i notice things they have been quite profound.

There also have been recent studies when applying testosterone to women wanting to become men, how it effects the receptor sites. It was observed to INCREASE the SERT of receptor sites. Which allowed more seretonin to go across stream, this has been hypothesized why women are twice as likely to be more anxious than men.

Screenshot_2019-10-28-12-43-54.png

Edited by josht9210

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On 11/2/2019 at 2:57 PM, hope1 said:

Any thoughts on this medication as a possible means to ameliorate HPPD?

 

How do these neurosteroid drugs relieve depression?

The drugs are mildly sedating. They interact with GABA receptors in the brain. GABA is the major inhibitory neurotransmitter in the brains of all mammals, so an agent that augments GABA can be sedating. In fact, the biggest challenge with brexanalone for postpartum depression is the potential for excessive sedation. Sleepiness also affected some of the patients who took SAGE-217, but that's not necessarily bad because sleep disturbances are a big problem in depression and in a range of psychiatric illnesses. The drug may relieve depression at lower doses, without causing the sedation that was seen in some patients in the clinical trial, but that needs to be tested.

https://m.medicalxpress.com/news/2019-11-neurosteroid-antidepressants-horizon.html


 

 
  •  

SAGE-217 is a synthetic "positive allosteric modulator of the GABA A receptor".  That is what the metabolites of DHT, progesterone, and a whole lot others are [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5α-Reductase#List_of_conversions ].

GABA A receptors are what benzodiazepines bind to produce the benefits.  What the phrase above means is that it amplifies the effects of that particular receptor.

Don't know why they need to develop a synthetic when natural ones exist.  Probably patents.  Could also be to get around the propaganda against androgens.  Or it may be a more effective delivery method.  Generally speaking oral androgens are rather liver toxic whereas injected or topic preparations are not.  Perhaps SAGE-217 isn't.  (As a side point oral progesterone and oral estrogens produce rather unfriendly metabolites, but again, injectable or topical versions do not).

Was able to speak with a scientist who specializes in androgen's effects on the brain.  She describes these as "the brains natural benzodiazepines".  That they are necessary for mental/emotional health and are often insufficient in people suffering mild (or otherwise) brain injuries.

There is also a study showing that moderately high doses of testosterone (must be > 500 mg / wk) can treat major depression.  [ Typical TRT doses are 70-200 mg/wk ]

In general terms, testosterone helps with mental focus and accomplishing goals.  DHT gives the 'feel good' effects.

In the end the question remains: Does SAGE-217 work better then benzos?  Is it safer?

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On 11/3/2019 at 1:38 PM, josht9210 said:

so far testosterone + dht has been quite interesting

Please describe effects.

Mine are that DHT resolves 2 major visual symptoms that nothing else (except high fever) resolves.  DHT derivatives improve sharpness and overall quality of vision.  T helps language comprehension, focus and fatigue.  None 'cure' me but do improve quality of life.

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5 hours ago, VisualDude said:

Please describe effects.

Mine are that DHT resolves 2 major visual symptoms that nothing else (except high fever) resolves.  DHT derivatives improve sharpness and overall quality of vision.  T helps language comprehension, focus and fatigue.  None 'cure' me but do improve quality of life.

I am not looking for a 'cure' to the symptoms, just something to help with anxiety as opposed to ssris.

I've been on paxil 10mg for 10 years since hppd/panic/dpdr onset. I kind of shut up and took the pill and got really numb and passive to all stimuli. For example I got no pleasure or reward from anything, if I went to the beach or hiking with my ex, she would be so in awe and I was just like this is stupid lets leave. This became my new reality and I actually had no clue how numb I was too things until recently.

 

I started off with 175mg per week, injecting daily based on my labs and advice from t nation forums. I'm currently using 250mg per week(just testing this for a bit, I will resume 175 soon)/daily shots to mimic the bodys natural production, plus 5-10mg of DHT per day. I have a new doctor prescribing it for me ( I was going underground before ) he told me my dht was low prior to trt.

The first couple of weeks were rough, I had placebo anxiety wondering why I was getting anxiety and heart palps, I eventually just said whatever I'm too far in now.

I would get glimpses of what I fealt was "Reality", things fealt clearer, colors looked brighter, sensations were more pleasing. These would come in short bursts and last couple hours. 

4.5 weeks I had major anxiety, I was assuming it was from e2(estradial), but this is another reason daily injections help, less e2 aromatization. (blood levels fully stablize at week 6-8) The feeling of reality was intense, but overwhelming as I associated it with anxiety, when infact thats how real life feels without being on an ssri

Week 7-9 (right now), I feel absolutely amazing. Everything is so clear. I literally feel like pre-mdma, I wake up in the morning and the sun shines the same way it did when I was a kid, I converse with people without brain fog and what not, I can legit keep a train of thought. (I am 27, been on ssris for 10  years) I actually get nervous anxiety like I used to as a kid before talking to a girl, I blush and everything again, these emotions stopped being accessable to me on paxil. My sex life has also improved. My 5 week blood panels were really good, better than pre-trt. I can't explain it but this is the first time I've fealt fully in my body without dpdr in years. This is not placebo or exaggeration. I almost feel paxil was causing more dpdr at a certain point. I def overstayed my welcome on paxil, it did help with anxiety for my onset, but was detrimental the last couple years.

 

My docs new protocol for me is 26mg a day/182mg a week, 1 click of testosterone cream (converts mainly to dht when applied on scrotum)

I also have access to all the underground hormones, so I am willing to experiment, if you know of any that can benefit anxiety let me know. Ik they have 19nor nandralones and what not, also a couple other dht derivatives, but they are pretty liver toxic, deca, winstrol, dianabol, trenbolone, equipose, anavar, if you know of any of their steroid profiles let me know which one would best help the case. The masteron(injecting) I'm using right now has done wonders but has kind of made my hair shed a bit.

Currently weening off paxil, my conclusion is that the increase in testosterone bypassing the SERT system that ssris work on. SSRIS block the SERT (seretonin transporters) so that way more stays active in the system, increase in testosterone was observed to increase the amount of SERT's you have, this study was done in a women transitioning to a man, also explains why men have less anxiety than women anecdotally. 

There are tons of studies of testosterone effect on depression, and some of the effects on anxiety and confidence. I can't say its helped with the hppd symptoms, but it def has helped *SO FAR* with depression/anxiety/dpdr, I'm actually scared this good feeling will go away... p.s 10 years of hppd, no drug abuse since then, just alcohol on rare occasions

Edited by josht9210

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5 hours ago, VisualDude said:

 Could also be to get around the propaganda against androgens.

omg thank you, you know how hard it was to get it prescribed as a 27 year old white male, jesus christ, I saw over 6 doctos who all said no, luckily I found a legal telemedicine clinic who treats tons of people so they have a broad spectrum of clients undergoing treatment, they are interventional endocrinologists who specialize in andrology

Edited by josht9210

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23 hours ago, josht9210 said:

I am not looking for a 'cure' to the symptoms, just something to help with anxiety as opposed to ssris.

I've been on paxil 10mg for 10 years since hppd/panic/dpdr onset. I kind of shut up and took the pill and got really numb and passive to all stimuli. For example I got no pleasure or reward from anything, if I went to the beach or hiking with my ex, she would be so in awe and I was just like this is stupid lets leave. This became my new reality and I actually had no clue how numb I was too things until recently.

 

I started off with 175mg per week, injecting daily based on my labs and advice from t nation forums. I'm currently using 250mg per week(just testing this for a bit, I will resume 175 soon)/daily shots to mimic the bodys natural production, plus 5-10mg of DHT per day. I have a new doctor prescribing it for me ( I was going underground before ) he told me my dht was low prior to trt.

The first couple of weeks were rough, I had placebo anxiety wondering why I was getting anxiety and heart palps, I eventually just said whatever I'm too far in now.

I would get glimpses of what I fealt was "Reality", things fealt clearer, colors looked brighter, sensations were more pleasing. These would come in short bursts and last couple hours. 

4.5 weeks I had major anxiety, I was assuming it was from e2(estradial), but this is another reason daily injections help, less e2 aromatization. (blood levels fully stablize at week 6-8) The feeling of reality was intense, but overwhelming as I associated it with anxiety, when infact thats how real life feels without being on an ssri

Week 7-9 (right now), I feel absolutely amazing. Everything is so clear. I literally feel like pre-mdma, I wake up in the morning and the sun shines the same way it did when I was a kid, I converse with people without brain fog and what not, I can legit keep a train of thought. (I am 27, been on ssris for 10  years) I actually get nervous anxiety like I used to as a kid before talking to a girl, I blush and everything again, these emotions stopped being accessable to me on paxil. My sex life has also improved. My 5 week blood panels were really good, better than pre-trt. I can't explain it but this is the first time I've fealt fully in my body without dpdr in years. This is not placebo or exaggeration. I almost feel paxil was causing more dpdr at a certain point. I def overstayed my welcome on paxil, it did help with anxiety for my onset, but was detrimental the last couple years.

 

My docs new protocol for me is 26mg a day/182mg a week, 1 click of testosterone cream (converts mainly to dht when applied on scrotum)

I also have access to all the underground hormones, so I am willing to experiment, if you know of any that can benefit anxiety let me know. Ik they have 19nor nandralones and what not, also a couple other dht derivatives, but they are pretty liver toxic, deca, winstrol, dianabol, trenbolone, equipose, anavar, if you know of any of their steroid profiles let me know which one would best help the case. The masteron(injecting) I'm using right now has done wonders but has kind of made my hair shed a bit.

Currently weening off paxil, my conclusion is that the increase in testosterone bypassing the SERT system that ssris work on. SSRIS block the SERT (seretonin transporters) so that way more stays active in the system, increase in testosterone was observed to increase the amount of SERT's you have, this study was done in a women transitioning to a man, also explains why men have less anxiety than women anecdotally. 

There are tons of studies of testosterone effect on depression, and some of the effects on anxiety and confidence. I can't say its helped with the hppd symptoms, but it def has helped *SO FAR* with depression/anxiety/dpdr, I'm actually scared this good feeling will go away... p.s 10 years of hppd, no drug abuse since then, just alcohol on rare occasions

Fantastic results.  As far as trying anything else, I'd work with what you are doing right now.  HPPD has a nasty habit of popping back with too many changes ... you've probably read such stories on the forum.  So go steady and see how this sets in.

Yea the studies on testosterone show lots of benefits.  Even with most prostate cancers although docs are locked into the myth of how bad T is.  The whole bad rap started because of athletes using steroids and then laws against it ... there was never significant concerns about T medically.

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26 minutes ago, VisualDude said:

Fantastic results.  As far as trying anything else, I'd work with what you are doing right now.  HPPD has a nasty habit of popping back with too many changes ... you've probably read such stories on the forum.  So go steady and see how this sets in.

Yea the studies on testosterone show lots of benefits.  Even with most prostate cancers although docs are locked into the myth of how bad T is.  The whole bad rap started because of athletes using steroids and then laws against it ... there was never significant concerns about T medically.

Funny enough the prostate cancer is actually due to the estrogen. The issue with injecting test is the aromatase into estrogen. However if you are low t naturally you are most likely high e2, so either way you have potential to unlocking the prostate cancer gene all males have.

 

As for cardiovascular diesease the only risk is the increase in hemocrat and hemoglobin, red blood cell count. It thickens the blood and if not monitored properly could cause the stroke/heart attack due to making the heart work harder.

On the flip side low t and high e2 is also very toxic for the cardio vascular system.

Atleast on trt you have access to constant labs and are given a hormone that increases energy instead of leaving you sedatary.

Edited by josht9210
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Was surprised to learn that T/E2 ratio is more important that absolute E2.  Seen medical cases with gynocomastia.  When given T, which raises both, the gyno reduced in spite of higher E2.

Noticed that E2 affects memory as well.  And brain fog.

Not sure how women would apply some of this.  It is safe for them to take T but the more they take, the more frequently they have to shave and wax.  There is propaganda against women taking androgens as well.  But Britain, for example, has been doing so for 60 years.

Except for extremely high amounts, the body usually adjusts and HCT normalizes.  So does vascular inflammation.  Usually blood clots are an E2 thing and show within 3 months.  There are 3 main underlying reasons, the main one being high Lp(a).

There are a number of studies indicating the threshold of safety of testosterone is 600mg/wk which is considerably higher than what is prescribed for TRT.

As a rule, all meds should be monitored.  Its more like there is no such thing as a safe med, but meds can be used safely.

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Both too high t/e2 and too low are bad. I raised my dosage to 250mg (just a test) and my head is very clear it actually gives me anxiety because I've gotten used to my brain fog

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Hormones are something in incredibly interested in as I could believe hypothalamic/pituitary issues could easily result from the negative brain effects of hallucinogens we are experiencing. These are very sensitive brain areas, and it’s not uncommon for those suffering from tbi, a group we share a remarkable resemblance to, to have issues with. 

 

i have some Anastrozole handy and have been considering trying it. We shall se. I need to look into it more. 

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13 hours ago, Onemorestep said:

Hormones are something in incredibly interested in as I could believe hypothalamic/pituitary issues could easily result from the negative brain effects of hallucinogens we are experiencing. These are very sensitive brain areas, and it’s not uncommon for those suffering from tbi, a group we share a remarkable resemblance to, to have issues with. 

 

i have some Anastrozole handy and have been considering trying it. We shall se. I need to look into it more. 

Are you a female? Anastrazole will only lower your estradial (e2) which wouldn't do much to benefit you. Infact it could make you feel worse, visuals would be the same. I have tons of estrogen blockers and they are useless unless attemping to keep e2 under control while raising testsoterone, if you are a male consider expierementing with testosterone/dht.

When you begin exogenous test you halt endogenous production, shutting down your htpa. Idk if this is good or bad but I use dhea and pregnenolone to supplement my other hormones. It is possible to use hcg to keep lh and fsh up. If you want to try test and live in the us let me know. I'm having interesting experiences and interactions with my current ssri. I still think the effect of hormones on neurotransmitters are underlooked.

Edited by josht9210

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