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Painting the Void

Afobazole for anxiety (benzo substitute)

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Just thought i'd drop in to let y'all know that afobazole (Russian axiolytic/anti-depressant) has really been really helping me with my anxiety (I have had HPPD & DP/DR since age 16. I am 31 now). It's great to not be worried about benzo's or pregabalin, trying to balance sporadic use with the risk of becoming addicted. Afo takes a few weeks to start working and it's subtle compared to benzo's (no muscle relaxtion/ inhibition/ sleepyness etc. it's not much of a tranquilizer). It can be stopped at any time with no withdrawals according to the research i've looked at. When I get a bit more time I will post some more in depth analysis and links to studies, but just for now i'd though id share this info with all my HPPD brothers and sisters out there in the world. Idealy I can just keep benzo's for the odd emergency situation.

 

Just for disclosore I also take Tianeptine 12.5mg 3 times a day (it's a mood brightener and a novel kind of antidepressent that doesn't seem to make HPPD worse due to not having the same Mechanism of action as SSRI's. I mainly take tianeptine in the hope of long term neurogensis/neural plasticity and to reduce the negative effects of chronic stress on the brain. (Living with HPPD and DP is stressful right?!) It can help with anxiety to a certain extent.

 

I also take;

B12 (methylcobalamine)
Vitamin D3 (sublingual)

Ubiqionol CoQ10

Krill Oil

Astaxanthin (anti-oxident)

Chelated Magnesium / Calcium supplement

 Vitamin K2

Phosphatydylserine

+ Chinese tonic herbs - 8 Immortals / Reishi Mushroom extract / Chage mushroom extract / Ginseng

 Sublime formula.

 

jeez it's a lot of stuff, no wonder i'm broke!

 

Cheers,

Luke

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Apparently I was just discovered in July of this year that Tianeptine is a full agonist at the opioid receptor sites. I do very well with opioids but had to cut them out of my life. I wonder if this would make for a good replacement? Do you purchase online and if so where at?

 

Thank you,

Andrew

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I just order tianeptine on ebay. I used to have to import if from overseas as a generic medictaion but seems freely available as a nootropic substance now rather than being marketed as a prescription anti-depressent. Maybe Servier's patent has expired? It's actually been around in France for decades but not widely known until more recently. Afobazole I source from awakebrain.

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I am going to order me some here soon off of ebay now! I wonder since they officially discovered that it works on the opioid receptors if it will be classified as a opioid? I mean technically it is. If so I wonder if they will soon put it under the same regulations as Tramadol where you need a prescription but it isn't illegal to have(at least in my state). Like you can easily get a prescription for Tramadol online and they will mail it to you but it is pretty expensive. Might want to stack up on the Tianeptine just incase. 

 

I also suffer dp/dr and am in a constant state of derealization and the depersonalization will hit me more like a attack but I haven't had one in awhile *cross fingers*. Do you get any relief with the tianeptine? And what about the Afobazole? Really it is odd, for me opioids really help my derealization. I was hooked on oxycontin and esp hydrocodone for a few years because it gave me relief. I still had my derealization but I never paid any attention to it while on opioids. I guess the good mood I was in all the time just took my mind off of it. This is why I am wondering if Tianeptine will be the magic bullet for me. What do you think?

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I got Tianeptine off of Ebay and have been using for 2 and a half days basically now. I bought from the vendor who sells in powder form. I lost my 3ml syringe so really I have been just trying to eyeball the amount but I can say with certainty I have been taking about 30 mg dosages if not higher. I can't say I have felt much but also I have been EXTREMELY tired these past few days. I am going to finish this gram I have and then try to order it from a actually nootropic website to compare. I plan on making a solution of Tianeptine and just some distilled water and mixing it in a 30 ml container to where I have to just draw out 12.5mg and use it sublingually. I also want to try it with something like grapefruit juice because it is metabolized through the same enzymes that grapefruit juice inhibits. But as of now, I got nothing positive or negative to say about it right now. 

 

Also you mention you use it in hopes of neurogenesis. Have you ever thought about using it with melatonin? Buspar and melatonin are suppose to create neurogenesis which is why I would I mention melatonin. Or maybe even Buspar and Tianeptine? Not sure which it would be, hell why not just all 3! lol.

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Hi there,

 

good to read you've found something that helps.

Regarding your Afobazole use:

What's your dosing regimen?

How long did it take for effects to become apparent?

 

I have some from AwakeBrain that I never really gave a proper trial, so it's something I'd be up for trying again if I have a period where I'm trialling nothing.

 

Best wishes,

odisa

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Hi there,

 

good to read you've found something that helps.

Regarding your Afobazole use:

What's your dosing regimen?

How long did it take for effects to become apparent?

 

I have some from AwakeBrain that I never really gave a proper trial, so it's something I'd be up for trying again if I have a period where I'm trialling nothing.

 

Best wishes,

odisa

 

I know someone who has just started taking afobazole after I told him that someone from here recommended it and he says he feels pretty good after the 3rd day. He started off at 10mg 2x a day but tried 10mg 3x yesterday and said it made him foggy. I think that is a pretty common side effect until you get use to it. Supposedly it takes 4 weeks for peak effects so I am going to say a few days to a month until you actually feel anything. 

 

Hope this helps if Void doesn't make it back for whatever reason.

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Hey guys,

Yeah regarding the dosing of Afobazole, I just followed the recommended dosing of 1 pill taken 3 times daily. I do believe it takes 2-3 weeks before any consistent anxiolytic effect is built up, peaking at 4 weeks. My plan is to try it for 3 - 6 months, then taper off it over a few weeks. I don't believe there are any withdrawal effects like people experience with benzos. It seems to reduce anxiety but totally different mechanics of action in the brain. It is not really a sedative / tranquilizer like a benzo class of substance.

 

Other questions;

 

Tianeptine isn't really an opioid - it it technically classed as a Selective Serotonin Re-uptake Accelerator (SSRE!) ie. it does the opposite of SSRI's in a way. It increases the re-uptake rate of Serotonin, rather than blocking the re-uptake of seotonin. I have read many articles on it over the the years, but due to the Hppd/dp fuzz my working/long-term memory is never that much to rely on. Basically no one quite knows for sure  how it has it's mood brightening / anti-depressant effect. Usually down stream effects are cited, not the direct mechanism of action.

 

Andrew; most people at first get a mild euphoric buzz from tianeptine (that is powder take orally at 12.5 mg 3 x daily), but after a while this can pass. I'm really in it for the long term neurogenesis / neuroprotective effects that seem to come from continued use. (To be more accurate it seems to restore healthy neurogenesis in people with abnormal brain function ie. depression, anxiety etc..)

 

Here is an extract from a 2010 study on tianeptine 

 

Considerable progress has been made in describing the physiological and behavioral sequelae that
result from depression, but the specific factors responsible for its development and maintenance are
not well understood. Investigators have utilized animal models of stress effects on brain and behavior
to develop a better understanding of the neurobiological basis of depression, which could ultimately
produce improved treatment options for the patient. We have reviewed the findings of preclinical
research demonstrating that tianeptine prevents the deleterious effects of stress on physiology and
behavior. Tianeptine prevents chronic stress-induced morphological changes in the hippocampus and
amygdala and blocks the effects of acute stress on synaptic plasticity in the hippocampus and PFC. We
have also reviewed findings demonstrating that tianeptine has procognitive effects. Tianeptine
enhances hippocampus-dependent learning and memory and prevents the stress-induced impairment of
such processes. Tianeptine’s prevention of the adverse effects of stress on brain and behavior is likely
to contribute to its effectiveness as a treatment for people suffering from depression.
Tianeptine’s antidepressant effects appear to involve modulation of glutamatergic
neurotransmission, which resonates with evidence implicating abnormal glutamate activity in the
pathogenesis of depression. Cellular, molecular and electrophysiological studies have shown that
tianeptine prevents the stress-induced rise in amygdaloid glutamate levels and blocks stress-induced
changes in glutamate receptor currents and glutamate transporter expression in the hippocampus.
Moreover, tianeptine potentiates AMPA receptor function, as demonstrated by increasing
phosphorylation of the Ser831 and Ser845 sites on the GluR1 subunit of AMPA receptors in the
hippocampus and PFC. These latter findings may explain why tianeptine enhanced long-term (24-hours)
hippocampus-dependent memory retrieval (as reported here) and, more generally, how it facilitates
synaptic plasticity in the hippocampus. Other research has shown that tianeptine has anticonvulsant
properties, which appear to be based on its stabilization of glutamate levels in conjunction with
adenosine receptor activation.

In summary, tianeptine is a well-described antidepressant with effective actions against stressinduced
deficits of the nervous system. It is as effective as SSRIs in treating depression, produces
fewer adverse side effects and reduces anxious symptoms associated with depression without the need
for concomitant anxiolytic therapy [18–21,207]. It is therefore relevant to note that tianeptine has been
shown to ameliorate symptoms in people with post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) [208] and in
recent work has been shown to block the effects of intense stress on behavior and cardiovascular
systems in an animal model of PTSD [100]. Thus, the well-described antidepressant and memory
protective properties of tianeptine indicate that, in addition to its effectiveness as a treatment in mood
disorders, it potentially has broader applications, as in the treatment of anxiety.

 

Link: www.mdpi.com/1424-8247/3/10/3143/pdf

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Someone asked about the severity and nature of my anxiety. I have mild-moderate base level anxiety due to HPPD I suppose, I also experience mild/moderate agoraphobia and social anxiety. I'm not sure to what degree that is caused by the HPPD, or indirectly due to the DP/DR sensation or the way that HPPD has impacted my whole personality and life (socially, financially etc). It's understandable that a person would feel more comfortable at home if there are experiencing HPPD/DP/DR, as it is easier to control that environment and feel safer.

 

The main effect I have noticed from Afo is a big reduction in the kind of creeping anxiety (though and feelings) that would sometimes feel like it was going to spiral out into a panic attack. I used to hate that creeping paranoid anxiety, it would eat away at me and make me feel like I might lose control or go crazy. I still have some base-level of anxiety but I luckily (so far) seemed to have lost the panic.

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andrewcb;

 

regarding opipod receptor activity - I stand corrected!

 

"Tianeptine research was revolutionised in July 2014 with publication of the unexpected discovery that tianeptine is a full agonist at the μ and δ opioid receptors with negligible effect at the κ opioid receptors.[9] Selective μ opioid agonists in the brain's "hedonic hotspots" typically induce euphoria.[10] Selective kappa agonists typically induce dysphoria. The role of central delta opioid receptors is poorly understood. Dual activation of the mu and, less potently, the delta opioid receptors may be critical to tianeptine's mood-brightening and anxiolytic effect - a therapeutic action seemingly unaccompanied by the physiological tolerance and dependence that have plagued traditional opioids. Previous research into tianeptine may need to be re-evaluated in this light."

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Painting,

Yeah it is a real recent discovery, I doubt there is much activity though. Also I wanted to thank you! I am fixing to order some Afo myself, been busy trying other supplements but plan on ordering tomorrow. On another forum(a forum unrelated to HPPD or anything) we are discussing nootropics and the sort and 2 people on there have started using Afo and Tianeptine since. They used the Tianeptine first and have just more recently been using Afo but so far it seems they both like it. One guy says it gets better and better everyday. I believe he is 6 days in and 1 pill 3x a day I believe. 

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Painting; Appreciating your writings! Would love to hear more details on your afobazole experiences :) (I realize that I'm pretty much just repeating my post from Sep. 17th :P )

I ordered some yesterday so it will be here next week. Will definitely keep you informed. 

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eh.. the way everybody always boasts about what they have ordered and says they will inform of the results.. and the results never come :(

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