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rollingregret

Benzo wd syndrome -- psych questioning its validity

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The one thing you have to remember is once your problems get bad enough the lines get blurred from one symptom to the other, and the lines get blurred from one disorder to the other. ........But if you are getting better, it would be easier to fine tune.

You have to ask yourself what is the goal? I understand one real goal would be to feel good. But your desires and plans need to be put out there.

Right now you are like the guy that takes the drug not to get high but to keep from getting sick.

The only problem is you have fratboy-tolerance and are on small-horse dosages.

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he talked about how tolerance doesn't exist, he could pull people off and on klonopin, no problems

Tolerance exists as you described and mean losing effectiveness. Because Klonopin has a very long half-life and takes about a month for all its metabolites to get out of your system, he may carry this his view about withdrawal. However, even the prescriber information sheet says not to suddenly stop http://www.gene.com/...opin/pdf/pi.pdf "Consequently, after extended therapy, abrupt discontinuation should generally be avoided and a gradual dosage tapering schedule followed". Perhaps it is some hair-splitting, technical view that often complicates getting effective treatment.

movement in the visual field (Dr. A believes it to be a defect of the peripheral vision systems).

This gets into the two major visual systems I've posted about elsewhere: Ambient Visual processing and Focal Visual processing. You may enjoy reviewing them and Googling them.

My receptors sure have been altered

This happens with all medication so some extent. The brain is not elastic, it is plastic.

If one takes the Gabapentin route, do you have to go from 300-900/day and increase up to 3600 or does do doses like 900/day work long term? I imagine the higher you go, the worse the side effects.

I started with 300mg pills. Two on the first day, 3 / day for a week, then 6 / day. The need was so great that there were NO side-effects. After 6 months it would increase 'movement of stationary objects' so I'd reduce dose. This indicates to me that Gabapentin might be your next best choice to try ... once you can get someone to prescribe. Gabapentin helped the peripheral hypersensitivity that I suffered ... not Sinemet. I don't think Klonopin did ... did it help this symptom in you?

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Besides, thought Jay might enjoy a few more details

I feel you are still holding back some secrets :D

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''This is what they say about Benzo Detox: "This can lead to collapse of marriages, business failures, bankruptcy, committal to a hospital and the most serious adverse effect, suicide." --------Sounds positive.

...Anyway slow w/d is like 65-100% success supposedly. ''

I've thought about this many times. Don't want to think about it becoming reality.

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Sorry...........didn't mean to get you (us) down..............Listen........don't worry about it, you are probably more sane than me. And what makes you think i personally have any of those things to lose? (aside from being alive and out of a hospital)

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''This is what they say about Benzo Detox: "This can lead to collapse of marriages, business failures, bankruptcy, committal to a hospital and the most serious adverse effect, suicide." --------Sounds positive.

...Anyway slow w/d is like 65-100% success supposedly. ''

I've thought about this many times. Don't want to think about it becoming reality.

98, as we've talked about, there doesn't be any reason that you or I should be coming off them as they aren't making us worse, only for the moment not making us better (you due to the opiat fiasco and me due to rapi cutting). I think if we stabilize and do really slow tapers, it might be ok. Statistically, what does 65-100% mean? That's a HUGE margin of error on one study or they're using one study for the lower bound and apparently Dr. Abraham's POV for the upper bound. 100%...ok....

The one thing you have to remember is once your problems get bad enough the lines get blurred from one symptom to the other, and the lines get blurred from one disorder to the other. ........But if you are getting better, it would be easier to fine tune.

You have to ask yourself what is the goal? I understand one real goal would be to feel good. But your desires and plans need to be put out there.

Right now you are like the guy that takes the drug not to get high but to keep from getting sick.

The only problem is you have fratboy-tolerance and are on small-horse dosages.

Very true, it's what makes figuring out a course of action so difficult. LOL at fratboy tolerance and small-horse dosage. I've never thought of this range as being high before having to creep up to it since I was at 4mg and then able to cut to 3.5 before this whole thing started. I never really thought about the quantity, 4mg, as being ridiculous. All I knew is that I found this medication and 4mg got rid of all the debilitating symptoms. It's only after the cutting and running into problems that I even looked into benzo wd as a problem and saw that people are usually on 1.5mg with HPPD and often just 0.5-1mg with GAD and consider it to be huge. I do think my dose had to be higher because naturally my initial "tolerance" (not ramped up over time) was higher than most (possibly due to the difference in the efficacy of allosteric modulation on my system + I mainly used it as an anticonvulsant or to treat extreme excitation of my anxiety pathways).

he talked about how tolerance doesn't exist, he could pull people off and on klonopin, no problems

Tolerance exists as you described and mean losing effectiveness. Because Klonopin has a very long half-life and takes about a month for all its metabolites to get out of your system, he may carry this his view about withdrawal. However, even the prescriber information sheet says not to suddenly stop http://www.gene.com/...opin/pdf/pi.pdf "Consequently, after extended therapy, abrupt discontinuation should generally be avoided and a gradual dosage tapering schedule followed". Perhaps it is some hair-splitting, technical view that often complicates getting effective treatment.

movement in the visual field (Dr. A believes it to be a defect of the peripheral vision systems).

My receptors sure have been altered

This happens with all medication so some extent. The brain is not elastic, it is plastic.

If one takes the Gabapentin route, do you have to go from 300-900/day and increase up to 3600 or does do doses like 900/day work long term? I imagine the higher you go, the worse the side effects.

I started with 300mg pills. Two on the first day, 3 / day for a week, then 6 / day. The need was so great that there were NO side-effects. After 6 months it would increase 'movement of stationary objects' so I'd reduce dose. This indicates to me that Gabapentin might be your next best choice to try ... once you can get someone to prescribe. Gabapentin helped the peripheral hypersensitivity that I suffered ... not Sinemet. I don't think Klonopin did ... did it help this symptom in you?

As you said, even on the label it says to reduce with caution. To say you can go on and off and there are no withdrawal symptoms...for a benzo...

255uypl.gif

Sure, very aware of the plastic nature. I guess what I meant is that the receptors have changed after 4 years of being in a particular state, brought on my a mechanism where the absence of adequate levels of GABA-A activation cause downregulation. It's not so much a re-organzation of function as it is a gene/molecular regulatory response. I WISH there was some positive plasticity where the hyper-excited neurons would form synapses with inhibitory neurons. That would be an instance of restoring function to a normal state and some positive plasticity (as in the case with recovery from stroke, brain injury, etc.).

That's good to hear that I don't need to be a frat boy when it comes to Gabapentin either, and I think you're right -- it's my best bet. Going to have to wait several weeks to even propose it, maybe longer.

I do think Klonopin by itself reduced my visuals (including peripherally-based ones) but also I believe that once you decouple the physical sensations that go along with experiencing the altered visual state, visuals aren't so bothersome. I think what we experience are "painful visuals", but once you remove the pain, they are, like during any sort of drug-induced state (apart from a bad trip), not a bothersome event.

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I know your joking but i take all the blame:) i just need to stop letting tbese benzo boards make me so paranoid. the wds i was going through last time when I was cutting were hard but possible. Plus my memory started coming back as well as being more clear minded. Im tolerant to my klonopin, but it def still works if i fall asleep after i take it. Thx for any concerns. Later all

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Four days ago I stopped taking vicodin and percocet c/t after 1 month of abuse. Averaging 30mg daily, Finally today 4 days later the w/d's are basically gone. How can these drugs be easier to come off of then opiates.

I remember c/t 2mg of xanax daily after only 2 weeks of use and I wound up in the ER. after not sleeping for 4 days.

Alright time for work later!

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Xanax and Heroin are great things....................for the first week.....lol .......w/d?

Try nicotine, guys.......that ain't so easy.

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How can these drugs be easier to come off of then opiates.

Addiction, withdrawal, and tolerance are not the same things, though they interrelate. Some time food sensitivities/allergies can cause bad cravings when you discontinue.

Then there is physiological addiction vs psychological addiction. With physiological addiction, recovery is extremely difficult ... and this one is attributed to plasticity in the motivation center (dopamine) - most notably from cocaine or meth.

In short, it is all about adjusting to things. A month of benzos isn't the same as a year of benzos. Same with opiates.

I advocate cycling meds, but that has its own problem.

For example - Opiods:

Good Rheumatologists who treat pain try to give at least 3 meds and teach the patient how to use it (often tramadol, vicoden, oxycodone) in minimal amounts in accord with the pain level. And to cycle so that a med doesn't loose effectiveness. However, it takes a person willing to put much effort in paying attention to what med they need. So if the patient can't (won't) handle it, they give Oxycontin which is time release.

Time release pain killers have the greatest addiction potential. Why? Pain throbs, waxes and wanes, sometime greatly during the day. It is rarely constantly the same level. Treating for the highest level means over-treating the rest of the time.

So we can learn lessons for other meds as well. Not sure how it would apply to Klonopin since, for those that respond, the effective dose seems to be a constant specific leavel that is unique to each individual, usually in the 2-3 mg range.

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I meant to say...how can opiates be easier to come off then benzo's

Huge typing error, anyways good post. Cycling med's works great. I just became addicted so I took them all :angry:

I was at my best at 2mg of klonopin around 6 yrs. ago, Hppd barely bothered me. But I was in better health, no herniated disks in back ect..and exercising is my best relief from hppd.

Also I'm trying to figure out which med Im taking thats causing suicidal thoughts and just feeling negative towards everything at times.

I'll just cut down on my nuerontin since I read those are side effects. Last time I tried to stop lyrica at a small dosage, it actually felt like benzo wd's. Nuerontin and lyrica wd's are much harder to stop then most would think.

It seems Im just in constant w/d's it's annoying. It will just take some time, I'll be in a better mood after I drink my coffee:)

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A pharmacist here told me that Lyrica has addictive/withdrawal issues so in New York it has prescriber restrictions that Neurontin doesn't. Between that and $$$ I haven't tried Lyrica. The only withdrawal issues I've had with Gabapentin (Neurontin) is return to the same problems I had before ever taking it. Fortunately that is better. Still need a little and it does rock anxiety and sleep dysfunction ... just milder than I've experienced with benzos.

Are you finding your cut down on Neurontin is as difficult as getting off Lyrica?

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I feel you are still holding back some secrets :D

Well, there are a few more important details ...

O.P.Vunder actually had 3 nipples - just like Francisco Scaramanga. What this has to do with Benzodiazepine Withdrawal issues remain a mystery even to the most scholarly. But this may shed light on the role of the Canadian Mounted Police.

ScaramangaNipple.jpg

gal_villain_11_scaramanga.jpg

The reset-button is such a powerful device that strange, unexplainable effects have occurred. Even Lady Justice in post #65 was not immune to its effect. Unusual reports continue to come in as leaks escape censorship. It is clear that the motivational center of the brain, heavily dopamine involved, is being manipulated ... at least in the male population ... and infants. The denial of Benzodiazepine Withdrawal problems by the psychological community is yet another affect, generally for the sexually repressed. http://en.wikipedia....ical_repression

foot-nipple-16242371358.jpegbreton.gifremote-pacifier.jpg

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---------------------------------------------------------------------I could have sworn i saw your picture on the internet.

Is this you ?................................................................................................or Is this you?

douchebag-_3.jpg1317234955-michaelcole.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------(lol!)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Just wanted to bump this thread to give everyone an update on my situation should it be of help to others:

Saw my pdoc today. We were potentially going to start me on Keppra (it's all the...rage...these days) ;) . We decided not to, based on the fact that at 1 month out and change, Gabapentin is REALLY helping me. I'm about to kick it up to 400mg TID and although I've had some concerns about weight gain, to some extent it could be in my head and if I really start gaining weight, then we can start considering Keppra or alternatives (I've actually been pretty much the same, maybe a harder time shedding excess fat...but I've also been way more sedentary over the past 6 months since graduating and looking for a job.)

1998, not sure if you're around these days. Last you posted, you were going through some tough times and since we've really had VERY similar paths, I would think that it must be helping (I vaguely recall you giving it a try, not sure what your dose was or longevity of treatment).

It could very well be that this benefit does not continue long-term, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. I'm still only at 80%, but no skin crawling, very little muscle tension, all that's left is a bit of body buzz and over-caffeinated feeling in my head. Visually neutral FTR.

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it's all the...rage...these days

+ + +

Gabapentin is REALLY helping me

Good. So like myself, it isn't big on helping visuals ... just other stuff. Is it 400mg / day ?

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