VisualDude

Thiamine Cocarboxylase

139 posts in this topic

Yes! Got mail today. Gonna get it tomorrow at the post office. Since we are so similar Visual, it will be interesting to see if i gain the effect at the 15 minute mark. Of course, knowing that placebo might be an issue but it will be interesting to see if it kicks. The only thing that we have had different reactions to is gabapentin that just does not work for me, aggrevates symptom.

 

Even if this works fine, i'll go for the Celebrex cox-2 inhibitor. I've talked to researchers who said this could really be benefitial. I dont know, theory vs. the outcome. Anyway. Guinea pig mode on once again. First up is the more simple thiamine cocarb..

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Everyone sometimes forget something, this isnt a hppd thing(maybe a benzo thing). Not every symptom is related to hppd. If you believe hppd fuckes up your memory it is. I actually remind me alot.

 

Yes it helps me the brainfog, i only take 1 pill a day. 

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I didnt really believe in this but what a dp/dr killer. Not as profound as the first Sinemet pill i took but there is definititely a lot of warmth to it. It does something to my vision, not sure what but more focused. More clear in My thoughts aswell

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Oh its nice already lot of good posts about it

visual did a good job he is smart i read a lot about him posts he doing a real effort for hppd online

Txn man

I want to give it shot buth i need a good source that can ship to europe

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1 pill, that would be 25mg.

Disclaimer: I have never taken vitamine B for Keppra side fx that is sometimes recommended. Since there is bit of different vitamines like b6 and b12 in the complex, I have to be open to the fact that the change could be due to a relief from Keppra side effects. However, the positive effects are pretty much the same as visual listed. I'll let this play out for some time but it was a really special feeling to wake up this morning. Clear and sharp.

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Everyone sometimes forget something, this isnt a hppd thing(maybe a benzo thing). Not every symptom is related to hppd. If you believe hppd fuckes up your memory it is. I actually remind me alot.

 

Yes it helps me the brainfog, i only take 1 pill a day. 

 
 
Do not be afraid to take 3 pills per day, which is the 'normal' adult dose according to the mfg.  Note that Merkan is trying a much higher dose.  I've been working in the range of 2 to 10 pills per day with 3 being most typical now that a few weeks have gone by.  [ Please don't feel this is pressure to take more, it is just reassurance ]
 
 

1 pill, that would be 25mg.

Disclaimer: I have never taken vitamine B for Keppra side fx that is sometimes recommended. Since there is bit of different vitamines like b6 and b12 in the complex, I have to be open to the fact that the change could be due to a relief from Keppra side effects. However, the positive effects are pretty much the same as visual listed. I'll let this play out for some time but it was a really special feeling to wake up this morning. Clear and sharp.

 

 

Unlike the product I've been using, the Source Natural product you are taking does not contain any B vitamins other than thiamine.

 

Ingredients: Thiamin (from 25 mg cocarboxylase [Coenzymated]) - 16 mg
Other Ingredients: glucitol, mannose (reduced), sodium citrate, natural peppermint flavor, and magnesium stearate.
 

So this is a good confirmation that that product can be used instead of the Bio-3B-G ... and that thiamine cocarboxylase is indeed the 'med' involved.  [ I still favor Bio-3B-G because of lower dose and mix with the other Bs to maintain 'balance' (and the inclusion of Biotin which is implicated in some thiamine disorders).  But it is very good news so that people outside the USA can still find TC if they can't get Bio-3B-G ]

 

 

Is this working for brainfog and for memory issues?

 

Merkan's comment may answer this.  I too feel benefit though have been cautious to say so since I've discontinued a med that specifically helps that ... and am missing not taking it, though with only half the problems from its absence when not taking thiamine cocarboxylase. (sorry for the run-on sentence)

 

 

I didnt really believe in this but what a dp/dr killer. Not as profound as the first Sinemet pill i took but there is definititely a lot of warmth to it. It does something to my vision, not sure what but more focused. More clear in My thoughts aswell

 

Amazing that such a simple nutrient can be like a med when it has been missing or otherwise genetically compromised!

 

In addition to helping DR/DP, your vision should be sharper with better depth perception and 'connection' with the world around you.  Also, lighting not so dim (without Sinemet) or not so bright (with Sinemet).  Just as connection to the world improved, some connection to your inside world may increase.

 

You will probably find that you need to adjust your meds.  Perhaps decreasing Sinemet and Keppra.  But proceed carefully as you are particularly sensitive to meds among HPPDers

 

 

There are 3 areas known to be affected by thiamine deficiency that directly relate to HPPD:

 

1 ... Dopamine processing (as discussed earlier in the thread)

2 ... Acetylcholine metabolism (alluded to as early as 1929 but here is a more recent text: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2010.06919.x/epdf  See Fig 6)

3 ... GABA synthesis (See: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FCJN%2FCJN20_S3%2FS0317167100048630a.pdf&code=33de6c0ce6281afcbcc11dafcdd37ae9 )

 

On #2, while one cannot be dogmatic, there seems to be connection with both DR and VS to acetylcholine.  Keppra has been popular on the forum and works with acetylcholine (being a Racetam - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racetam )

 

On #3, while not a cure, many have used benzodiazepines to manage their HPPD (particularly Klonopin).  Benzodiazepines target a particular class of GABA receptors.  Whether GABA function is specifically altered by HPPD or GABA meds simply help compensate for dysregulations from HPPD simply isn't known at this time.  But with thiamine deficiency, GABA levels are lower.

 

As a 4th point - and an absolute major one - thiamine is critical for glucose processing.  Not the eating of sugar, but the energy production the fuels life in all cells.  When you read about ATP, whether weight lifting or otherwise, this is where thiamine comes in.

 

HPPD may, at least partly, be from mitochondrial problems - essentially a mitochondrial disorder at the core.  MDs are discussed with Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and other 'energy' disorders.  Mitochondria are the 'energy powerhouse' in cells.  And thiamine metabolism problems are a class of MDs.  Many HPPDers report problems with fatigue even after 'conquering' anxiety, depression and other things that are known to cause fatigue.  

 

Another factor is that mitochondrial membranes are particularly sensitive to chemical damage, and when the membrane becomes 'leaky', efficiency drops (energy production drops).

 

Lastly (will it ever end), mitochondrial energy problems could explain the diverse symptoms reported by HPPDers.  HPPD is a list of symptoms with most reporting a subset from this list and others reporting additional, non-HPPD symptoms - often involving pain, peripheral nerves and/or autonomic nervous system regulation.

 

So we go circle and circle over possible clues implicating thiamine metabolism being related to HPPD susceptibility and/or symptomology.

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Unfortunately, it does nothing for me (3 x 17mg per day for a few weeks now).

 

Seems like Klonopin is the only thing that has any real effect on me. I fear my dopamine receptors might be too far gone.

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Oh its nice already lot of good posts about it
visual did a good job he is smart i read a lot about him posts he doing a real effort for hppd online
Txn man
I want to give it shot buth i need a good source that can ship to europe

 

 

Thank you for the compliment.  Am working hard on the problem.

 

 

Unfortunately, it does nothing for me (3 x 17mg per day for a few weeks now).

 

Seems like Klonopin is the only thing that has any real effect on me. I fear my dopamine receptors might be too far gone.

 

Or they are wonderfully healthy along with good thiamine metabolism.  But thank you for trying this test.  How is your overall energy?

 

So far it is 4 out of 5 who express benefit from TC.  That is far higher than expected - was targeting the 10-20% range.  But it is still quite early.  At least it is an affordable test with a harmless (actually nutritionally helpful) substance.

 

 

Will put up a poll soon so we can collect feedback - a tally of 'helpful' with whatever comments members choose to make.  

 

This can be significant info for researchers and grants to study HPPD.  Unfortunately, studying HPPD has been too 'open', making it difficulty to even know where to start.  Seeing that mitochondrial disorders may be involved can direct researchers in mitochondiral DNA.  And seeing the thiamine disorders may be involved directs researchers to solute transporters (such as SLC19A1, SLC19A2 and SLC19A3) ... See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiamine_transporter

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Or they are wonderfully healthy along with good thiamine metabolism. 

 

 

Possible, though Sinemet was also a fail and even illicit dopamine drugs like cocaine have very little to no effect, I think it is more likely that my receptors are screwed (I think the same with serotonin too).

 

My energy levels are pretty normal, never been a big issue for me.

 

Anyway, good to see it helping others.

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Possible, though Sinemet was also a fail and even illicit dopamine drugs like cocaine have very little to no effect, I think it is more likely that my receptors are screwed (I think the same with serotonin too).

 

My energy levels are pretty normal, never been a big issue for me.

 

Anyway, good to see it helping others.

 

Interesting.  I have a fleshly brother who told me that cocaine has zero effect on him - like drinking water.  He is happy, retired (73) and loves weed, or more specifically some sort of 'resin' which he says chills him and helps to be sharper.  Sexually active (or at least self-active) without ED or the like.  His hobbies include mining (yup) and writing books.  Definitely does not need dopamine supplementation.

 

In hindsight, got the thiamine weakness from mom and dopamine weakness from dad.  Also have (had) a brother who probably suffered both like self.  Wish I could get DNA samples but 2 have been cremated and spread, and moms been in the ground for 40 years.

 

Time will find a solution for you.  You seem to completely resolve with Klonopin or barbituates whereas these have no visual effects on me.  Also, you have CEVs and I don't though can generate mild ones by taking plenty anticholinergics.

 

If we can ever get comprehensive symptoms lists along with med responses from members, it would go a long way to isolate the various forms of HPPD.

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Wow how old are you visual?

I was at my doc today talking meds, and telling him nothing works for me besides benzodiazepines and sinemet did work (he wasnt suprised)

We chat abit about meds and we came on the med topamax. Seems to work for trailers and such, anyone tried this or has a view on it?

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ITime will find a solution for you.  You seem to completely resolve with Klonopin or barbituates whereas these have no visual effects on me. 

 

Just to note that barbiturates do next to nothing much for me, very mild. Klonopin reduces VS (2mg = about 70% reduction) and anxiety, but I still feel like i'm tripping, i can just deal with it better.

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Possible, though Sinemet was also a fail and even illicit dopamine drugs like cocaine have very little to no effect, I think it is more likely that my receptors are screwed (I think the same with serotonin too).

My energy levels are pretty normal, never been a big issue for me.

Anyway, good to see it helping others.

Jay, i believe your report is helpful even for you. I have the opposite problem, i cant take anything dopaminergic without getting a huge respons. Ive stoped drinking caffein for this reason. Smoking puts me in limbo etc. I am not sure i would even dare to try cocaine in My state due to the huge impact it would have. Not a violent person but wouldnt take the rusk of going berzerk.

It say something about the disorder, doesnt it? Its been proven that CB induced HPPD differ from LSD if i remember correctly. There must be an answer to where that difference comes from. Genetics? Man i need to do that test which i never take the time to do.

I also found it interesting that you still see paterns with closed eyes. I only got that when i started anti depressant and at My onset nine years ago. Also when i started Keppra i had paterns all over my visual field. First when i started clonazepam it subsided while on Keppra. All these things could be clues to the stuff that Visual talade about. Some things might be still working in your CNS that i dont and vice versa

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Welin actually it contains B-6 10mg and B-12 860mcg and other stuff as well. Are we looking at different products? Sorry i am on the Phone so wanna keep it short.

Do not be afraid to take 3 pills per day, which is the 'normal' adult dose according to the mfg. Note that Merkan is trying a much higher dose. I've been working in the range of 2 to 10 pills per day with 3 being most typical now that a few weeks have gone by. [ Please don't feel this is pressure to take more, it is just reassurance ]

Unlike the product I've been using, the Source Natural product you are taking does not contain any B vitamins other than thiamine.

Ingredients: Thiamin (from 25 mg cocarboxylase [Coenzymated]) - 16 mg

Other Ingredients: glucitol, mannose (reduced), sodium citrate, natural peppermint flavor, and magnesium stearate.

So this is a good confirmation that that product can be used instead of the Bio-3B-G ... and that thiamine cocarboxylase is indeed the 'med' involved. [ I still favor Bio-3B-G because of lower dose and mix with the other Bs to maintain 'balance' (and the inclusion of Biotin which is implicated in some thiamine disorders). But it is very good news so that people outside the USA can still find TC if they can't get Bio-3B-G ]

Merkan's comment may answer this. I too feel benefit though have been cautious to say so since I've discontinued a med that specifically helps that ... and am missing not taking it, though with only half the problems from its absence when not taking thiamine cocarboxylase. (sorry for the run-on sentence)

Amazing that such a simple nutrient can be like a med when it has been missing or otherwise genetically compromised!

In addition to helping DR/DP, your vision should be sharper with better depth perception and 'connection' with the world around you. Also, lighting not so dim (without Sinemet) or not so bright (with Sinemet). Just as connection to the world improved, some connection to your inside world may increase.

You will probably find that you need to adjust your meds. Perhaps decreasing Sinemet and Keppra. But proceed carefully as you are particularly sensitive to meds among HPPDers

There are 3 areas known to be affected by thiamine deficiency that directly relate to HPPD:

1 ... Dopamine processing (as discussed earlier in the thread)

2 ... Acetylcholine metabolism (alluded to as early as 1929 but here is a more recent text: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.2010.06919.x/epdf See Fig 6)

3 ... GABA synthesis (See: http://journals.cambridge.org/download.php?file=%2FCJN%2FCJN20_S3%2FS0317167100048630a.pdf&code=33de6c0ce6281afcbcc11dafcdd37ae9 )

On #2, while one cannot be dogmatic, there seems to be connection with both DR and VS to acetylcholine. Keppra has been popular on the forum and works with acetylcholine (being a Racetam - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racetam )

On #3, while not a cure, many have used benzodiazepines to manage their HPPD (particularly Klonopin). Benzodiazepines target a particular class of GABA receptors. Whether GABA function is specifically altered by HPPD or GABA meds simply help compensate for dysregulations from HPPD simply isn't known at this time. But with thiamine deficiency, GABA levels are lower.

As a 4th point - and an absolute major one - thiamine is critical for glucose processing. Not the eating of sugar, but the energy production the fuels life in all cells. When you read about ATP, whether weight lifting or otherwise, this is where thiamine comes in.

HPPD may, at least partly, be from mitochondrial problems - essentially a mitochondrial disorder at the core. MDs are discussed with Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and other 'energy' disorders. Mitochondria are the 'energy powerhouse' in cells. And thiamine metabolism problems are a class of MDs. Many HPPDers report problems with fatigue even after 'conquering' anxiety, depression and other things that are known to cause fatigue.

Another factor is that mitochondrial membranes are particularly sensitive to chemical damage, and when the membrane becomes 'leaky', efficiency drops (energy production drops).

Lastly (will it ever end), mitochondrial energy problems could explain the diverse symptoms reported by HPPDers. HPPD is a list of symptoms with most reporting a subset from this list and others reporting additional, non-HPPD symptoms - often involving pain, peripheral nerves and/or autonomic nervous system regulation.

So we go circle and circle over possible clues implicating thiamine metabolism being related to HPPD susceptibility and/or symptomology.

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I can't drink caffeine either, but don't think that is dopamine related. I know caffeine produces dopamine, but it has alot of other actions that could meddle with hppd too, like increased cortisol.

 

My CEVs are crazy strong, I really don't mind those though, quite interesting to watch! It only gets creepy when I drink too much and have a hangover, then  the CEVs start showing faces and nightmarish stuff.

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Cafeine with klono wont be a problem. Those CEVs do bother me, it reminds me everytime when I shut my eyes I fucked it up

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Just to note that barbiturates do next to nothing much for me, very mild. Klonopin reduces VS (2mg = about 70% reduction) and anxiety, but I still feel like i'm tripping, i can just deal with it better.

 

Thanks for the clarity ... thought you did better with them

 

 

Wow how old are you visual?

I was at my doc today talking meds, and telling him nothing works for me besides benzodiazepines and sinemet did work (he wasnt suprised)

We chat abit about meds and we came on the med topamax. Seems to work for trailers and such, anyone tried this or has a view on it?

 
55.  So Sinemet actually helps you ... how much do you take?  Haven't tried topamax.  Unusual antiseizure med.
 

 

Cafeine with klono wont be a problem. Those CEVs do bother me, it reminds me everytime when I shut my eyes I fucked it up

 

Maybe sleep with eyes open?

 

eyes-open-sleeping.jpg

 

Welin actually it contains B-6 10mg and B-12 860mcg and other stuff as well. Are we looking at different products? Sorry i am on the Phone so wanna keep it short.

 

This is the one thought you were taking http://www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1314

 

Can you post a like to your actual product?

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the brainfog and memory,concentration are terible for me i feel i am like a old man write a small text here cost me 2 times more time, i have just spend a lot of money for supps never found something that i realy can say if it works

I am using gingko biloba and omega 3 for few weeks again and i read a doctor book and he saw improvment in his patients with gingko this was a good sign to continue buth he says they geth improvment in short and longterm

I dont know i can say postieve about that

When i quit klono cold turkey a month later the issues geth lot worser i am still not geth better seems i have some permanent damage, its now 1 year later

I have recently did a bloodcheck nothing realy to find for sign about it

The last thing to do is quit tobacco and see if i geth better buth it isnt easy

I wil try TC and post soon here the results

finding something thats work individual is realy a roulette finding the right dose and quality to

Getting tired to make the same faults and forgetting so much cost me so much time and money,frustration in social life because i cant focus

I may just move on to out of a city

I never been succes full here

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This is the one: http://www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1327

I Will try to order the one you linked to, just to make an A/B test. Perhaps the one i use is better due to the amount of other B-vitamines. But just to see if there is a different

Thanks for the clarity ... thought you did better with them

55. So Sinemet actually helps you ... how much do you take? Haven't tried topamax. Unusual antiseizure med.

Maybe sleep with eyes open?

eyes-open-sleeping.jpg

This is the one thought you were taking http://www.sourcenaturals.com/products/GP1314

Can you post a like to your actual product?

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Buth this link can only be ship in US dont findt to a reseller in europe

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Buth this link can only be ship in US dont findt to a reseller in europe

Try iherb, they sold me the one i got with other B-vitamines in it. Not sure if they sell the other one with only cocarboxylase. I live in Sweden where most companies stop orders with the slightest doubt due to the harsh laws when it comes to medicines and "exotic" supplements

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