Quinine sulfate

[VisualDude]

For those looking for new solutions, a bit can be learned from old solutions ...

 

Quinine has been in use since the 1800's.  Its main purpose is to treat malaria.  However, it used to be used as a general tonic.  Today it is still readily available in tonic water, as those of you who love G&Ts (Gin and Tonic) might know.

 

It is derived from the bark of Cinchona trees/bushes.  Like most meds, they don't know how it works for malaria.  It relaxes smooth muscle like an anticholergenic.  It does affect dopamine activity.  It seems to alter the ANS as well as the CNS (See posts regarding Ca, Mg, and K such as #39 http://hppdonline.com/index.php?/topic/1959-spitting-out-yet-another-theory-magnesium/)

 

It isn't a med to take high amounts unless you have malaria (~2g per day).  See http://www.aspenpharma.com.au/product_info/pi/PI_Quinate.pdf

 

However, as stated above, it is in genuine tonic water with amounts limited to about 80mg per quart.  And they haven't issued any warning about too many G&Ts - Twenty Five quarts a day would treat malaria .

 

I've only worked with 75mg at a time ... and then only a few times (will let you know if anything significant occurs, good or bad).  It reduces DR (defined in this case as the feeling of disconnection, as if there is a transparent barrier between the world and self) and is relaxing - all this without the Gin.  Can be quite sedative.  Feels like a cross between Keppra and Sinemet.

 

Hope this is helpful.  Have fun and enjoy your G&T!

 

 

Miscellaneous bedtime reading:

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2759182

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1471-4159.1992.tb10993.x/abstract

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1357098

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11797417

http://www.progressivehealth.com/rls-quinine.htm

http://www.nourishing-the-soul.com/2010/06/mood-food-connection/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0306362377900118

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00688932

[BigPapaChakra]

Awesome, thanks for posting! I'm going to investigate this a bit. A couple questions before I dig in:

 

 

 It relaxes smooth muscle like an anticholergenic.  It does affect dopamine activity. 

 

Is it actually an anti-cholinergic, and if so, to what degree (i.e. a strong anti-cholinergic, mild, etc)? If it is, can its anti-cholinergic-'icity' be reversed/cancelled by cholinergic compounds or extra dietary choline?

 

 

 

I've only worked with 75mg at a time ... and then only a few times (will let you know if anything significant occurs, good or bad).  It reduces DR (defined in this case as the feeling of disconnection, as if there is a transparent barrier between the world and self) and is relaxing - all this without the Gin.  Can be quite sedative.  Feels like a cross between Keppra and Sinemet.

 

How long do the effects persist? What time of day do you use it? I could see its relaxing effects being good for sleep (as long as it doesn't largely mess with the different sleep 'waves'), yet, if it isn't sedating in any way, the decrease in DR and relaxation could be a good pair for stressful situations or 'bad days' (for me, when I have to go to class for a long time; I don't know why, but all my symptoms get wayyyy worse and fear rushes through my mind and I always make my stay as short as possible).

 

Thanks!

[VisualDude]

Is it actually an anti-cholinergic, and if so, to what degree (i.e. a strong anti-cholinergic, mild, etc)? If it is, can its anti-cholinergic-'icity' be reversed/cancelled by cholinergic compounds or extra dietary choline?

 

Am not sure.  I sounds like its mechanism is more with K and Ca.  Such as this report of scientists playing with rat rectums "It is concluded that quinine-induced RPC occurred independently of adrenergic or cholinergic mechanisms" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4051636

 

However with human placenta they report it seems to reduce acetycholine via "organic cation transporters (OCT)"  http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11682442

 

There is also the specification of "non-neuronal acetylcholine" ... not sure of how this fits in as we are interesting in both CNS and ANS.

 

Interesting jobs these people have.

    

 

 

How long do the effects persist? What time of day do you use it? I could see its relaxing effects being good for sleep (as long as it doesn't largely mess with the different sleep 'waves'), yet, if it isn't sedating in any way, the decrease in DR and relaxation could be a good pair for stressful situations or 'bad days' (for me, when I have to go to class for a long time; I don't know why, but all my symptoms get wayyyy worse and fear rushes through my mind and I always make my stay as short as possible). 

 

I've tried it mid morning.  It might be useful for sleeping - insomnia is a hellish thing.  I like to initially try meds with the whole day ahead to note what it does ... also without needing to drive or do something important in case a med is disagreable.

 

With a healthy person, the half-life is 8-12 hours.  Feel it the whole day.  It isn't dramatic but suspect that higher doses could be.

 

Have you tried Keppra or Sinemet?

 

Remember, always work with small doses of any med.  Quinine comes in 300 or 325mg pills.  1/4 of that you should note some effect and then decide.  Noting the drug interactions, it is best not to mix meds when taking 'malarial' doses or when evaluating it.  However, dietary choline shouldn't be a problem - give yourself a Yin - Yang tug of war,

[BigPapaChakra]

Sounds great, thanks for all the information. I may give it a go because currently the only thing that is holding my extreme DP/DR, panic attacks, and residual background anxiety is CES. Hopefully with time it will start to increase neurotransmitter levels and neuronal enzyme functioning.

 

I haven't tried any meds at all outside of the occasional xanax (only like two times in the past year when I really needed it) and I currently have etizolam but haven't used any yet. I don't yet have a psychologist/psychiatrist as funds are extremely limited and I'm not covered by insurance; the only thing I have coming up is a session (tomorrow) with a really kind Z-Health trainer and I'll be doing some vestibular assessments and training along with visual and sensory gating training. Possibly a session with a neuropsychiatrist in the city who does things like HBOT, rTMS (coincidentally he also does rTMS with ketamine infusions, lol) and so forth, but it's $345 for my initial appointment and we'll probably do nothing other than go through my problems I already sent an email about and give him my previous CAT scans and X-Rays.

 

Do I need a script for this, or can I get it online/over the counter? If it even offered a 10% improvement of symptoms, even less, that's a win to me! Thanks!

[VisualDude]

Got some from mail order.  Quinine would be a prescription, unless of course you get tonic water ... but that is very low amount and comes with corn-syrup.  Not sure how one would ever get a doctor to prescribe it.  Even for malaria they use synthetic quinine of some sort though now resistance strains of malaria have developed and there is movement back to quinine.

 

Getting calm is important for quality of life.  Aside from xanax have you used anything that helps?  How long have you been suffering HPPD?

[Syntheso]

Thanks, Visual.

So, there is not really much of a therapeutic value in tonic water alone?
 

[BigPapaChakra]

 

Getting calm is important for quality of life.  Aside from xanax have you used anything that helps?  How long have you been suffering HPPD?

 

I couldn't agree more. I feel as though if I achieved a stronger level of mental and emotional inhibition and control, my HPPD overall would become less severe. Aside from xanax, the TULIP protocol diminished my HPPD by like 50% overall and drastically increased my cognitive abilities; I stopped doing it for like 6-8 weeks and symptoms gradually were coming back, an intense stressor came into my life, and now I have HPPD worse than I ever had (I mean there are some days it is literally debilitating; outside of finding some time to do this blogging gig and then hang with my fiance I can't do anything, including school. Luckily I chose to do most of my classes online this semester). I've had HPPD for a little over 2 years now. I have had concussions and my mom and some others in my family have had severe migraines for life, so when I first got symptoms I went to the ER explaining symptoms that were very similar to occipital (visual) migraines + anxiety, and i just got very low potency pain pills that didn't even do anything, lol. One doc thought it was from my back injuries and migraines and that physical therapy would help; the ophthalmologist didn't see anything wrong with my eyes and still insisted I take some pharmaceutical eye drops and come back every year. My general practitioner claims it probably isn't HPPD and is probably Asperger's or something mixed with a panic disorder, though every time I see him I come accompanied with dozens of pages of studies and speak relatively fluently and exclaim how I want to become a physician, so he trusts my intuition and hypotheses; recently saw a neurologist who saw nothing wrong with my brain scans from over a year ago, and claimed it was post concussive syndrome from concussions I had when I was 15 and 16.... I'm not yet a trained medical practitioner nor hold an advanced degree in neurology, but my intuition, personal experience, and research leads me to believe that is completely wrong; post concussive syndrome doesn't normally arise 2-3yrs and get worse with every passing day with no signs of brain trauma; additionally, my symptoms arose after a period of extensive substance abuse, and, in particular, a weekend of mixing the wrong substances in large amounts and having bad trips. 

[Syntheso]

I couldn't agree more. I feel as though if I achieved a stronger level of mental and emotional inhibition and control, my HPPD overall would become less severe. Aside from xanax, the TULIP protocol diminished my HPPD by like 50% overall and drastically increased my cognitive abilities; I stopped doing it for like 6-8 weeks and symptoms gradually were coming back, an intense stressor came into my life, and now I have HPPD worse than I ever had (I mean there are some days it is literally debilitating; outside of finding some time to do this blogging gig and then hang with my fiance I can't do anything, including school. Luckily I chose to do most of my classes online this semester). I've had HPPD for a little over 2 years now. I have had concussions and my mom and some others in my family have had severe migraines for life, so when I first got symptoms I went to the ER explaining symptoms that were very similar to occipital (visual) migraines + anxiety, and i just got very low potency pain pills that didn't even do anything, lol. One doc thought it was from my back injuries and migraines and that physical therapy would help; the ophthalmologist didn't see anything wrong with my eyes and still insisted I take some pharmaceutical eye drops and come back every year. My general practitioner claims it probably isn't HPPD and is probably Asperger's or something mixed with a panic disorder, though every time I see him I come accompanied with dozens of pages of studies and speak relatively fluently and exclaim how I want to become a physician, so he trusts my intuition and hypotheses; recently saw a neurologist who saw nothing wrong with my brain scans from over a year ago, and claimed it was post concussive syndrome from concussions I had when I was 15 and 16.... I'm not yet a trained medical practitioner nor hold an advanced degree in neurology, but my intuition, personal experience, and research leads me to believe that is completely wrong; post concussive syndrome doesn't normally arise 2-3yrs and get worse with every passing day with no signs of brain trauma; additionally, my symptoms arose after a period of extensive substance abuse, and, in particular, a weekend of mixing the wrong substances in large amounts and having bad trips. 

I don't understand why some physicians struggle with the HPPD diagnosis and come up with all these other whacky ideas. Of course, it is important to look at different possible avenues, but if you start experiencing the very specific kind of symptoms associated with HPPD shortly after using hallucinogenic drugs.. why would you not be compelled to go with that diagnosis other than simply because you haven't heard of it before?!

[StateOfRegret]

It really is a mystery. Sometimes I suspect them of using some faulty probabilistic argument. I could see the line of reasoning being:

1) I've never heard of HPPD being diagnosed, then it must be rare.

2) If it is rare, then the probability of this being HPPD is very low.

3) Then other, seemingly less fitting, diagnoses are more likely.

 

The problem (aside from the fact that rare disorders do occur!) is that if they stick to that faulty reasoning, HPPD will forever be under-diagnosed, perpetuating the lack of familiarity with the diagnosis amongst medical practitioners .

[BigPapaChakra]

I agree with both of you. It's actually disheartening because I'm sure there are many people in a similar position to us that right now are helpless; additionally, there are probably many more with co-morbid disorders or other equally 'obscure' (although I believe HPPD may become more 'prominent' if it is more appropriately diagnosed) disorders who go months or even years without correct treatment. This is why I need to make it through this next year of school so I can get closer to getting my doctorates, unless I go some other route; I'd love to treat people with our problem and similar problems, and I could care less about making a large profit. 

 

Luckily my GP is open minded and has even told me that he recommends I do thorough research in different practitioners and find someone who may specialize in abnormal psychology and associated things, because they'd be more apt to look into HPPD, DP/DR, where if I go to some general neurologist, well, I'll get the response I described. I don't believe this neuropsychiatrist will be like that, though. He treats people who have/do abuse substances, have TBI's, Alzheimer's, etc. and normally with more advanced means such as rTMS. I described my symptoms and hypotheses (of having HPPD and not some psychosis or TBI) rather thoroughly and he claimed he's helped others in positions very similar to mine. 

[VisualDude]

Thanks, Visual.

So, there is not really much of a therapeutic value in tonic water alone?

 

 

Actually that is probably the best place to try.  I noticed that drinks with tonic water, such as G&T, the 'morning after' problems are less.  So this was the first clue to investigate.  The only concern is that it has sugar (about 1/2 of that in a Coke) and that might bother some people.  Also, the various brands of tonic water don't specify the percentage of quinine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonic_water  Bring your UV light.

 

 

 

I couldn't agree more. I feel as though if I achieved a stronger level of mental and emotional inhibition and control, my HPPD overall would become less severe. Aside from xanax, the TULIP protocol diminished my HPPD by like 50% overall and drastically increased my cognitive abilities; I stopped doing it for like 6-8 weeks and symptoms gradually were coming back, an intense stressor came into my life, and now I have HPPD worse than I ever had (I mean there are some days it is literally debilitating; outside of finding some time to do this blogging gig and then hang with my fiance I can't do anything, including school. Luckily I chose to do most of my classes online this semester). I've had HPPD for a little over 2 years now. I have had concussions and my mom and some others in my family have had severe migraines for life, so when I first got symptoms I went to the ER explaining symptoms that were very similar to occipital (visual) migraines + anxiety, and i just got very low potency pain pills that didn't even do anything, lol. One doc thought it was from my back injuries and migraines and that physical therapy would help; the ophthalmologist didn't see anything wrong with my eyes and still insisted I take some pharmaceutical eye drops and come back every year. My general practitioner claims it probably isn't HPPD and is probably Asperger's or something mixed with a panic disorder, though every time I see him I come accompanied with dozens of pages of studies and speak relatively fluently and exclaim how I want to become a physician, so he trusts my intuition and hypotheses; recently saw a neurologist who saw nothing wrong with my brain scans from over a year ago, and claimed it was post concussive syndrome from concussions I had when I was 15 and 16.... I'm not yet a trained medical practitioner nor hold an advanced degree in neurology, but my intuition, personal experience, and research leads me to believe that is completely wrong; post concussive syndrome doesn't normally arise 2-3yrs and get worse with every passing day with no signs of brain trauma; additionally, my symptoms arose after a period of extensive substance abuse, and, in particular, a weekend of mixing the wrong substances in large amounts and having bad trips. 

 

Concussions can bring on stuff down the road.  But you describe HPPD symptoms and have used rec drugs.  A head injury usually has more focal problems whereas HPPD is more diffuse.

 

Cool ... so you want to be a doc!  Go for it.  Eventually make a specialty of helping these sort of problems.  Interestingly, the famous Oliver Sacks is just a 'general neurologist'.  But his personal interest in cases lead him to be excellent.

 

How does alcohol affect you?  Particulalry anxiety

 

Does coffee bother you a lot?

[BigPapaChakra]

 

 

Concussions can bring on stuff down the road.  But you describe HPPD symptoms and have used rec drugs.  A head injury usually has more focal problems whereas HPPD is more diffuse.

 

Cool ... so you want to be a doc!  Go for it.  Eventually make a specialty of helping these sort of problems.  Interestingly, the famous Oliver Sacks is just a 'general neurologist'.  But his personal interest in cases lead him to be excellent.

 

How does alcohol affect you?  Particulalry anxiety

 

Does coffee bother you a lot?

 

Yeah, definitely something in the medical field. I'm thinking about neurobiology or something along those lines, and in October I'll have my first certification in Z-Health (I plan on becoming a master trainer, and that is essentially the same as taking advanced college coursework in neurology, physiology, and more). Actually, I'm going to post about this in another thread, but I recommend EVERYONE take a look into Z-Health; my first session was awesome.

 

I haven't drunken anything in a long time - I've been completely sober for probably a year or a little less, but before that when I drank my anxiety would dissipate, and coincidentally, I could even smoke weed with little to no issues. I took it too far, though, and drank too much.

 

Coffee doesn't bother me, but I've been drinking it since I've been a child, haha. Recently when my HPPD got really bad and I had a bad experience with high dose niacinamide, I stopped drinking caffeinated coffee just so I'd avoid any stimulation, but I've been drinking it the past few days and eating chocolate, too, and do perfectly fine. In fact, I've blogged about it before, but a lot of the 'negative' symptoms associated with caffeine can be mitigated by having it with a meal or adding adequate calories to your coffee. There are some studies on this, too. Additionally, caffeine is metabolically stimulating, in some instances even impacting the thyroid, so if you have your coffee black or on an empty stomach, you could potentially raise catecholamines and cortisol and get a stress response. 

[shaolinbomber]

It's a real strong anticholinergic. They would put it in as a cut with Asian #4 heroin back in the 70s to stop the histamine release that dope causes when you shoot.

[VisualDude]

It's a real strong anticholinergic. They would put it in as a cut with Asian #4 heroin back in the 70s to stop the histamine release that dope causes when you shoot.

 

Thanks for the info.  That would explain some of what I've noticed.  After trying it 3 days in a row, it seems to be less effective, which is what always happens with me and anticholinergics.  Better results with other meds but its an interesting one to learn about.

[StateOfRegret]

This (very old) article shows that quinine actually facilitates the release of histamine.

Increased plasma histamine concentrations after injection of the drug into the blood circulation were demonstrable only with pethidine, atropine, and quinine.

I'm a bit surprised by this, though, since I would have thought that atropine would have the opposite effect, if any.

[Syntheso]

Have been drinking tonic water whenever the chance arises. It makes for an enjoyable drink (esp. with the gin!). 

[mgrade]

Be a bit careful because quinine can effect the duration and potency of other medicines by effecting drug metabolism mechanisms.

I could go for a G&T right now.  LOL.