"Most of the HPPD cases recover within months"

[thenightwatch]

Truth or Myth?

[disguyhere]

i'd say myth.. maybe most cases of people who think they have hppd but simply have some leftovers.... but hppd is about the "persistence" ... in time maybe but not months

[VisualDude]

Truth.  And, yes, it does depends on how you define "persistence".  If a trip last a week is that it?  Or a month?  Where does one draw the line?

 

"...about 4% of LSD/MDMA users reported experiencing symptoms of HPPD. This is a substantial number,..."  http://dana.org/news/features/detail.aspx?id=42642

 

So, you've got symptoms that are mild, moderate or severe.  And you've got cases lasting weeks, months or years.  Must be another imaginary line between hard-core and soft.

 

Elsewhere it has been posted that Dr A says that >50% of HPPD cases resolve themselves.  One would guess he is referring to hard-core cases.  And nothing has been show to fix the problem other than stay away from drugs and booze.  Meds help manage it but haven't been know to fix it.  Just time, healthy lifestyle, and hope .... and hppdonline.com of course

[thenightwatch]

Both Dr Abraham and Dr Halpern have mentioned this, but I can't help but to feel it may only be to provide hope to the sufferers. I really hope is not wishful thinking...

[VisualDude]

Hope needs to based on reality ... not wishful desire.  Otherwise you can end up crashing.

 

I think it is hard, not just time going on with it, but often it gets worse for weeks or month without the person understanding why.  Can spook the crap out of a person.  For me it was like watching myself age years in just weeks without anything to stop it.

 

In the end, it helps to review perspective on all of life.  Things happen we don't like.  One wonders with things if they've gone beyond the point-of-no-return.

 

 

What a person can do is improve their odds for recover.  The 'healthy living' thing.  This applies emotionally as well physically.

 

You've been suffering a couple months.  That is a short time.  You've stopped recreational drugs.  You are young.  You really do have a lot to hope for and look forward to.

 

Are you taking any medicines?

 

I'd suggest that anxiety is the worst thing to deal with right now.  Learning to be less anxious will help you.  Chronic anxiety is hard on the brain and body.  And this is a common part of HPPD.  For some, hanging around with [non-drug] friends helps.  Do you play a musical instrument?  Stuff like that can help too.

[thenightwatch]

I'm taking busiperone (for the anxiety) and omega 3. My GP and parents believe that my problem is due to anxiety. I rather leaving them with that idea.I really hate worrying my mom. I have a bad feeling that what I have is HPPD. I try to take my mind out of it, but its just useless.

I try my best to look forward but I feel down, sad, this really sucks.I cursed the day I took that damned tap.

[thenightwatch]

I'm taking busiperone (for the anxiety) and omega 3. My GP and parents believe that my problem is due to anxiety. I rather leaving them with that idea.I really hate worrying my mom. I have a bad feeling that what I have is HPPD. I try to take my mind out of it, but its just useless.

I try my best to look forward but I feel down, sad, this really sucks.I cursed the day I took that damned tap.

[hppd24years]

Alot of philosophical nonsense in regards to the cure for this disorder everyone seems to think they have a birds I view of the rectification on this subject. Persistence?? in terms of duration? Hey as long as the persistant disturbances are behind our eye sight that's what matters to me. I have had this for 24 years and I ain't going to sugar coat it. There needs to be scientific research with physical people unfortunately there is no lab rats that I'm aware of that have h.p.p.d. Lol. Conventional drugs u are just a customer not a cure.. (u buy meds every month) I'm not sure if h.p.p.d. Falls under mental health but dam it really makes me wonder sometimes. I feel all u really can do is remain optimistic practice law of attraction and believe OR one day there might be enough peeps with this disorder to create a market for the pharmaceutical and drug companies to make a pill u have to take for the rest of ur lives!!! How would that be for our salvation?? Take good care of ourselves and others..

[VisualDude]

Alot of philosophical nonsense in regards to the cure for this disorder everyone seems to think they have a birds I view of the rectification on this subject. Persistence?? in terms of duration? Hey as long as the persistant disturbances are behind our eye sight that's what matters to me. I have had this for 24 years and I ain't going to sugar coat it. There needs to be scientific research with physical people unfortunately there is no lab rats that I'm aware of that have h.p.p.d. Lol. Conventional drugs u are just a customer not a cure.. (u buy meds every month) I'm not sure if h.p.p.d. Falls under mental health but dam it really makes me wonder sometimes. I feel all u really can do is remain optimistic practice law of attraction and believe OR one day there might be enough peeps with this disorder to create a market for the pharmaceutical and drug companies to make a pill u have to take for the rest of ur lives!!! How would that be for our salvation?? Take good care of ourselves and others..

 

You've suffered a long time.  Have you tried meds and if so, what meds have you tried?

 

 

I'm taking busiperone (for the anxiety) and omega 3. My GP and parents believe that my problem is due to anxiety. I rather leaving them with that idea.I really hate worrying my mom. I have a bad feeling that what I have is HPPD. I try to take my mind out of it, but its just useless.

I try my best to look forward but I feel down, sad, this really sucks.I cursed the day I took that damned tap.

 

Did you start buspirone after your bad trip, or were you already taking it for your anxiety?  Do you think that it helps? 

 

Note: Buspirone does blurs vision and it can cause issues from lower dopamine - that is relevant because some people with HPPD respond well to meds that increase dopamine.  And generally, though not all, HPPDers don't respond well to SSRI type meds.  While buspirone isn't specifically a SSRI, it is a serotonin agonist - which is another way of doing the same type of thing.

 

Of course, addressing anxiety is very important.  Unless this med is really helping, you might consider asking for something else.

 

You mention your folks not knowing about HPPD.  Does your doc know that this might have started with LSD?

[thenightwatch]

I started taking it after the bad trips. My doctor believes that my problem is "anxiety induced by substances". What other med can I ask for? I do not want to go with any strong benzo or anything like that...I just know I won't feel comfortable taking those.

[morbide]

I'm taking busiperone (for the anxiety) and omega 3. My GP and parents believe that my problem is due to anxiety. I rather leaving them with that idea.I really hate worrying my mom. I have a bad feeling that what I have is HPPD. I try to take my mind out of it, but its just useless.

I try my best to look forward but I feel down, sad, this really sucks.I cursed the day I took that damned tap.

Dwelling in the past is the worst thing you can do my friend. The world is your oyster, open it and caress the pearl inside of it. Well being doesn't end with hppd.

[hppd24years]

Visual, I have never been on meds of any sort.. I dealt with it by drinking alcohol but then I became a alcoholic which made it a ironic catch 22.. I'm venturing into a special tincture loaded with c.b.d's (Cannabidials) which is a natural element that paralyzes u with relaxation and settlement. We all have Endo- Cannabidials in us naturally, they fight off diseases/disorders and even cancers. Things happen to us that suppress these natural biological weapons we have in our bodies to fight off o whole array of negative problems including anxiety, panic attacks, and P.T.S.D. It is nonsychoactive as well.

[Guest]

Let us know the effects please.

[disguyhere]

to me "most recover within months" is completely different than "some recover within months with one of a wide range of medications that dont work for everyone" ... recover within months to me is someone who breaks a bone and recovers within months.. has the flu and recovers within weeks.. things like that.

 

not to be negative about it but with how many people on these forums alone have been in the game for 2+ years, i'd be real hesitant to tell anyone recovery occurs within months, even with the meds. Most of the meds out there that hppd'ers take only lesson symptoms and not remove them. that's not recovery, thats coping.

[hppd24years]

disguyhere, I hear yeah, this shit is torturous for sure and no doctors really kno about it where I'm from. U can add a zero on the end of ur 2+ in the game quote for me. I've never taken any pharmas for it either. Anyways good luck in finding some tranquility in the transformation of rebuttalment because that's about all this defecation is. Take good care of urself and others!!:-S:-()(:;]):*_*('o')⌒.⌒O_O

[Jay1]

It does seem that alot of people sign up, report mild/moderate symptoms and tend to leave after a couplle of months.... Take from that what you willl, but i do think a good percentage get better once they stop taking drugs. Especially cases from weed.

 

ps - i'm not in any way belittling such cases, just saying what i have seen from the 5 or so years i've been using this forum.

[VisualDude]

I started taking it after the bad trips. My doctor believes that my problem is "anxiety induced by substances". What other med can I ask for? I do not want to go with any strong benzo or anything like that...I just know I won't feel comfortable taking those.

 

It does sound like anxiety is your worst symptom.  Anxiety is both a reaction and a symptom.  In either case, it is something that you can learn to control with practice - and this should be one of your "meds".  Also, don't fall into the trap of feeling bad about yourself because of suffering anxiety.  It just make anxiety worse and leads to depression (learned helplessness).

 

As far as actual medications go.  If your doctor will work with you, short courses of a benzo are very useful.  Of course, Klonopin is one of the most successful meds to manage HPPD - visuals and anxiety.  However it doesn't fix it and long term bring somewhat of a dependence.  You mention being worried about such a 'powerful' med ... but its power is directly connected to it dosage - just take small doses to take the edge off.  In contrast, SSRIs (and the like) are very addictive - they just use the colorful phrase, 'discontinuance problems' - and takes months to balance out and 'work'.

 

By using Klonopin, Xanax, etc. during panic attacks or other out-of-control situations, it can help you get grounded and then figure out how to stay grounded.  It is no different than using a brace for a sprained wrist - the goal isn't to have a brace for life, but rather to rest the injured tendons so they can heal.

 

You mention having anxiety and even DR before the trip that brought you where you are now.  So, anxiety has been something more long term for you.  If you go to a therapist for CBT, it can really help you with anxiety.  (there are some technical things about this I've posted elsewhere)

 

So, you see, there are things you can do that will help you.

 

 

to me "most recover within months" is completely different than "some recover within months with one of a wide range of medications that dont work for everyone" ... recover within months to me is someone who breaks a bone and recovers within months.. has the flu and recovers within weeks.. things like that.

 

not to be negative about it but with how many people on these forums alone have been in the game for 2+ years, i'd be real hesitant to tell anyone recovery occurs within months, even with the meds. Most of the meds out there that hppd'ers take only lesson symptoms and not remove them. that's not recovery, thats coping.

 

Behind this topic "Most of the HPPD cases recover within months" and others like it is the question: Will I recover soon or ever?  This isn't an academic question.  But neither is it one that anybody can answer.  Only statistics.  Again, you greatly improve your odds by managing anxiety and "healthy living".

 

 

Otherwise, we are left with a technical question.  And only empirical (observed) data.  And for that you have to nail down a diagnosis: a start, a progressing, and a regression.

 

What exactly constitutes being diagnosed with HPPD?  During a 'trip'?  Being 'trippy' after the drug is out of your blood string (5 1/2 half-life's is the medical standard)?  How many symptoms must a person have to 'qualify' for having HPPD?  You'll notice tons of people on the DP websites where DP (from drugs) is their only symptom.  And DP is a perceptual disorder (dissociation is an alteration of consciousness).

 

Here are some numbers: LSD has a half-life of 175 minutes.  Multiply by 5 1/2 and you have 16 hours.  Triple that for good measure because people vary in metabolism.  That leave it at 2 days.  Therefor, if you are 'trippy' after 2 days, you have HPPD.  If it clears in a week or two, then you recovered fast.

 

All this nerd stuff is just to show what is actually involved in diagnosis HPPD and declaring duration and recovery times.

 

Is this an exercise in futility (for non-nerds)?  It just shows that most people recover quickly.  I have to agree with Jay.  What are the statistics of people suffering 10 years or more?  Or 2 years or more?  It isn't known.  And people tend to hide their problem - there are many newbie posts: 'I have suffered for years and didn't even know this problem had a name' ...

 

It is easy with anxiety to react to the fact that some people suffer for years and panic: 'Oh no, I'm doomed'.  But it is the minority that suffer that long and it is futile to fret about it.  Just take the steps mentioned earlier.

[disguyhere]

Visual,

 

I think that may come down to what you regard as hppd or not. See personally (and this isnt to belittle anyone going through any hppd like experience)  .. I don't see it as HPPD until someone can say "ok it's now been a few weeks and this isn't going away" .. Call it philosophically debatable or not, whether the actual chemicals leave your system or not when you take psychedelics there is a permanent change to brain chemistry, if only simply from the integration of the experience into your memory. You take acid and you're going to see the world differently afterwards, if only in how you personally perceive it. To me, after a month or two, you can call it a disorder. Then it becomes something systematic that truly starts impacting your life and other aspects of your physiology. If the question was "Will most people who take psychedelics stop having side effects with time?" Then I'd definitely agree with that because most people do reach an equilibrium again. But when you label anything a disorder there is an implication of a long term systematic issue, and the realist in me wouldnt want to sugar coat it for anyone else going through this and say "don't worry, most will get better". In my personal experience most come to terms with it, or find a new baseline that's not the same as before they took whatever substance... and generally stop regarding it as an issue. 

 

This is all semantics though. Pretty much everyone here agrees that the current accepted definition of hppd is kinda crappy. It's going to get better as more research goes into it, but that's also never going to happen if everyone that feels different for a few days after taking acid shrooms pot or anything else.. gets lumped into having HPPD. When I was a kid first experimenting if you didnt already know that taking acid would forever change your life, then you were gullible or obtuse and asking for trouble. Yeah, most of the commentary was pure BS, like cracking your back releases acid stored in your spine and causes flashbacks.. but there was enough evidence from the 60's and 70's that it didnt matter if you did it once or 100 times it would still change your perception of the world in at least a small way. Just knowing that that other view on the world exist changes you. That should be expected with any recreational drug. What shouldnt be expected is that 5 months after use you're still tripping at full peak strength. And 14 years later your world can still melt away with moments notice both visually or mentally. That to me is what hppd defines, and where a working treatment would help the most. Again this isnt to belittle anyone going through any level of it, but when you have such a broad definition of a disorder you end up with things like the ADHD generation. We as a society created a disorder that 20 years prior was just called being a kid, then we medicated the hell out of it, and now those kids are becoming parents and half of them have no concept of reality world because they've been medicated from it so long, and their kids are getting the fallout. That's not to say theres not kids out there who really do have a chemical issue that prevents them from having any attention span... but how many more are going to have that issue after growing up with parents who pay them no attention. And now with evidence in epigenetics growing, the more we medicate things unnecessarily the more that will pass down to future generations. 

[VisualDude]

There are a lot of life changing experiences and these do change ones future.  First kiss, first orgasm, 911, marriage, divorce, death of loved one, ... and yes - tripping.  The brain is a "meaning making machine" so each experience gets added to our memory and increases/alters future perception.

 

But to be a 'disorder' is when this integration leads to dysfunction.  How does one then define 'dysfunction' ... aaauuuggghhh.  We know what it is so lets not bother right now.

 

So for you the starting-point of HPPD would be "few weeks" or "a month or two".  That is fine enough.  The mention of the EROWID survey by Dr A did not define any of this.  Only the symptoms of HPPD are more common than suffering individuals think.

 

Because the severity of symptoms, the duration of symptoms, and the persistence - even intermitteness - varies so much with individuals, a somewhat broad definition needs to be made.  Yes, it seems that virtually everyone now has ADHD and Autism.  In the end, all that matters is that people get as much help as possible.

 

Many conditions get not just diagnosed but also the severity.  Full tripping and world-melt-away would seem severe.

 

 

There are curious questions with the whole persistence, intermittence, and possible 'recovery'.

 

I strongly think the model of toxic encephalitis is appropriate for HPPD.  Long term becomes toxic encephalopathy.  Why?  In reading about neurocognative testing for TE, they include temporary conditions.  They define TE as alteration of brain function.  And whether drugs or occupational exposure, even if it 'clears' (recovery) it was TE at the time.

 

Why is this important?  'Trips' usually clear (whether particularly life altering or not).  For those who had HPPD, it cleared.  For those who have it consistent or intermittent, the drug cleared but the condition hasn't.

 

The cases of intermittency are of particular interest.  It would seem that with HPPD the brain is wired different.  And it is wired in multiple ways, so depending on circumstances, a symptom can flip on or off.  Severity of symptoms often depends of fatigue - usually making it worse, yet a few report sleep deprivation improves some of their symptoms.

 

"Cerebrial Disihibition" - a nice work for 'unstable' seems to describe a near chaos (full chaos being medically described as an epileptic seizure).

 

Multiple wiring does occure with some conditions.  It is called cortical loops.  When midbrain functions are not working well, then connections are formed in the cortex to take over.  These work to some extent but are always slower.  Slowness and 'different-ness' aren't the only thing ...  what would happen if the midbrain wiring recovers?  There are now 2 steering wheels in the car.  Perhaps some sudden 'melt away' experiences are this.

 

Another possibility is loss of some synapses.  The average neuron has 1000 synaptic connections.  This makes them a delicately balanced machine.  What happens if you lose 100 connections?  It may still work but not as stable.  This phenominum is already known in the peripheral nervous system which, unlike the brain, can grow new neurons.  However, these new neurons often have few synaptic connections and are thus less stable - subject to 'jumps'.  Dopaminergic neurons in the midbrain often have over 100,000 synaptic connections, which indicates highly tuned functioning - and dopamine function has been implicated in HPPD.  Loss of synaptic function with Parkinson's disease is why people shake and get stuck - loss of stability.

 

Simple plasticity may be all the answer.  'Tripping' is about loosing control.  And HPPD is lost control ... in this context, a learned behavior (what you wanted at the time).

 

Genetics play its role too.  Whether a full-blown weakness or just the way a person is put together.  Dr A indicated a couple of plateaus in correlating the number of LSD hits with developing HPPD - that indicates genetics.

 

All of this may be a factor.  Or none of this may be.  But it illustrates some of the complexity involved.

 

Is this comforting?  That is doubtful, though persons such as myself find comfort in increased technical understanding.

 

 

 

The goal for all is an "equilibrium" that enables one to enjoy life and function well.  Ideally with 'normal' vision.

 

One interference of achieving this is anxiety.  In all cases, disorders, disease, ways and forms, chronic anxiety is physiologically hard on the brain.  "Physiologically hard" means it will cause deterioration.  Addressing it is vital.  [ BTW, there is a strong corelation between having anxiety and/or depression and developing TE. ]

 

"Sugar coating" life isn't a cure.  But 'validating' a person's condition and concern is helpful.  As are suggestions for how to better the odds of recovery.  People are comforted to know they are not alone, not crazy, and that many recover.  Hope is required for survival, if even all it is is learning to adapt.  "Many recover in month" - too sweet ... don't really know.

 

thenightwatch is young, he reports limited drug use, HPPD symptoms on the mild side, and for about 3 months so far.  There is good reason to hope.  While life does not come with gaurentees, it would appear statistically that he would not suffer 14 years as you have.

 

 

I'll have to crack my back and see what happens, lol.  Never hear that one, but have heard that if you have sex standing up you can't get pregnant.

[disguyhere]

i appreciate the well thought out response. It's refreshing to see someone who doesn't jump down someone else's throat for disagreeing with their views, and I do agree with you that hope does help. I didn't mean for any of my statements to come off in any kind of negative way, or to say to anyone that recovery is a myth or anything... everyone responds to life differently and some get better some don't.. some meds work for some they wont. Finding this forum was one of the more helpful things to happen to me in years even though it didnt much change the approach i take with my own long term broken world... it did give me a deep appreciation that there are many others out there who can relate when for years I spent my life thinking i was alone (as silly as it is to say when you know 1000's of others take the same substances and go through similar problems).. But even just that bit of validation that the problems i have arent at all unique to me helped bring me out of a really dark phase in my life. 

 

 

so to nightwatch, i hope for the best for you. Don't let anyone else's negatives keep you from at least trying. Had I a place like this 14 years ago and first going through this.. had there been any discussion of medications and treatments... maybe my life wouldnt have taken the turns it did. but then again had i all of those things many of the good things in my life wouldnt have come about either. so take the good and bad out of every situation and let it help you grow and find your own equilibrium.

[VisualDude]

Was thinking about an observed problem with 'newbie' reactions to long-time sufferers ... and it sort of relates to this conversation and the hope of recovering in months.

 

Some people get real upset or fearful about learning of people who suffer a long time.  Particularly on the DPSelfHelp forum, people have actually verbally attacked and harassed long timers (even driving them away) ... often blaming them for not getting over their problem.  It is as though the existence of long-timing is too fearful and they are driven with hostility, as if they are threatened by them.  Attacking the sufferers instead of helping and attacking the problems instead.

 

While not noticing this happening of this forum, the fear newbies experience might be there.  In states of anxiety (hypervigilance) a person tends to imaging worst case scenarios for themselves.  Perhaps newbies need a little sugar  ... just not lies  .

 

We all need real things to try, whether meds, lifestyles, or emotional work/therapies.  One would think a long-timer could use extra support to deal with depression or bitterness.  It is not easy to find a balance between seeking solutions and learning to chill-out and enjoy what we do have. 

 

For myself, it is hard to believe that its been 6 1/2 years so far.  While certain things have helped a lot, there are still problems.  Perhaps I shouldn't speak - "physician heal thyself"?  But I do know this, HPPD is an terrible thing to suffer alone.  And most people get it while young and inexperienced in life.

 

Well, hopefully this helps.   It is hard to communicate this well - - - just: keep trying and learn to enjoy life along the way

[hppd24years]

I think the catch phrase should realistically say "MOST H.P.P.D. SUFFERS SEEK FOR SALVATION" in the first couple of weeks after debunking the belief of Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny from the original person who wrote it. Thanks man!!!

[Dylan L]

Myth.

 

Took me 6 years to be cured from the visuals.  I also have not heard any miracle stories from anyone else about being cured in months.

 

Fuck, my Dad's had it for 30 years or so..

[hppd24years]

Dylan, I haven't heard of anyone curing themselves of the visuals completely either?? If u don't mind me asking what were ur visuals and how did u cure urself?? I have had this miracle from god for over 24 years now!!! Praise the good Lord and Hallelujah!! Amen!! (Jokes)