Spitting out yet another theory: Magnesium

[Ghormeh Sabzi]

Mine is more like the third, a real visual mess!

[onedayillsailagain]

Syntheso: I've had a more thorough look at the information you provided. I created a thread encompassing all Racetam research with a reply to your findings. Well, it will cover all Racetams as time progresses, for now it's just Piracetam.
Anyway, I'm very glad to know that I'm not the sole benefactor of my research! And also; you're very lucky your music remains largely unaffected
Furthermore it's very good that you haven't experienced any worsening from you dog's adventures.
Lastly, your testing methods will allow for an objective view of Piracetam's effects, so I'm very curious to read of your experience!
Indeed 3 weeks minimum should be allowed for full effect to take place. Are you taking any Choline supplements concurrently?

zukov: Thank you for your feedback! Despite the margins of your improvements, it will help devise possible future implications for a HPPD specific supplement stack.

Ghormeh: That's pretty bad mate.. When I look at the moon, I'd say I would see the second one, with the effects closer to the moon itself. Not as widespread around it. Mainly, it's just a blurry blob in the sky. Stars also just look like strange specks in the sky.

Regarding my own experience with Magnesium:
I continued the same dosing regimen yesterday. However, as stated before, my alcohol intake will prevent any objective view of its effects. I would tend to think that I experience subtle calming effects from Magnesium. Visual effects cannot be ascertained, for I took Melatonin (2,5mg) last night, which is known to reduce visuals a little in my case. One thing I must note, is that I've experienced a sea of floaters yesterday. Or well, I think they're floaters? It looked like a sea of swarming luminous flies, quite small actually. I remember having seen this less dramatically pre-HPPD on certain occassions. It was transient, and it didn't bother me. I only really noticed it when I focused my eyes to it. Alas, Magnesium at current dosing regimen (2 x 1g, 1 x 3g daily) has been a bit overkill regarding its err.. intestinal effects. I'll reduce intake to 3x1g daily.

[Syntheso]

Syntheso: I've had a more thorough look at the information you provided. I created a thread encompassing all Racetam research with a reply to your findings. Well, it will cover all Racetams as time progresses, for now it's just Piracetam.

Anyway, I'm very glad to know that I'm not the sole benefactor of my research! And also; you're very lucky your music remains largely unaffected

Furthermore it's very good that you haven't experienced any worsening from you dog's adventures.

Lastly, your testing methods will allow for an objective view of Piracetam's effects, so I'm very curious to read of your experience!

Indeed 3 weeks minimum should be allowed for full effect to take place. Are you taking any Choline supplements concurrently?

zukov: Thank you for your feedback! Despite the margins of your improvements, it will help devise possible future implications for a HPPD specific supplement stack.

Ghormeh: That's pretty bad mate.. When I look at the moon, I'd say I would see the second one, with the effects closer to the moon itself. Not as widespread around it. Mainly, it's just a blurry blob in the sky. Stars also just look like strange specks in the sky.

Regarding my own experience with Magnesium:

I continued the same dosing regimen yesterday. However, as stated before, my alcohol intake will prevent any objective view of its effects. I would tend to think that I experience subtle calming effects from Magnesium. Visual effects cannot be ascertained, for I took Melatonin (2,5mg) last night, which is known to reduce visuals a little in my case. One thing I must note, is that I've experienced a sea of floaters yesterday. Or well, I think they're floaters? It looked like a sea of swarming luminous flies, quite small actually. I remember having seen this less dramatically pre-HPPD on certain occassions. It was transient, and it didn't bother me. I only really noticed it when I focused my eyes to it. Alas, Magnesium at current dosing regimen (2 x 1g, 1 x 3g daily) has been a bit overkill regarding its err.. intestinal effects. I'll reduce intake to 3x1g daily.

Thank you, that thread is already very thorough. Damn, you just gave me shit loads more homework (all good stuff)! I'll reply to that separately when I've gone through it (will be a while unfortunately).

(aside) Mmm yeah, in a way HPPD has been a blessing for my music (emotionally).. when you have something to confront like HPPD daily, the emotional potential is enormous and venting that through an instrument or compositions gives you a force that can't really be practiced or taught. Okay, I can't hack practicing in a practice room for 6+ hours like many other students around me; a seriously good day would be 2 hours of decent practice for me, but it's usually 20 mins and then I'm in space. But, not to sound egotistic, but my more emotive playing (as opposed to technical) seems to lead me down a more 'musical' and acknowledged path.. Anyway, whatever I just said, put simply - yes, psychedelic use has made basic cognitive function extremely difficult... but, not to sound cliche - it has opened up huge emotional realms. Honestly, before I dropped some acid, I used to be a very temperamental arsehole. I severed a few brain cells and the concept of love that I cried about for hours after my first (of many) acid trips, stayed with me, and opened my mind. Call it cliche, whatever you want, but that is what I believe - my mind was opened up (but fucked up, at the same time).

Huge tangent there.

So, back to the topic-

Ah, well it's good that you looked into things further (well, a few scrolls!) than me and saw that thread was a fake. As you will have noticed, I am not the most thorough of researchers (yet!)

Well things have been worse since my dog's adventures (not unbearably though), you might have missed it in another thread. Visuals when in the dark looking up at fairy lights on my ceiling have been pretty mental (scholes of black fish swimming allover the bloody place!) - last two nights. But no effect on anxiety (not really been a big issue of mine anyway) or concentration (yet). As also mentioned, could still be the calm before the storm. And also, just after the dog's adventure I started the 4.8g of piracetam. So I am not sure if the madder visuals would have been there whether I had taken Piracetam either way. Anyway, despite what you present in the other thread about Piracetam appearing to be potentially unbeneficial to HPPD, I will continue for 3 weeks with the same dosing as mentioned above (I am happy to test even if there is a negative result, on the basis that anxiety isn't really a huge issue of minel). Two days on that dose of Piracetam and I haven't felt the spaced out/lethargy I suffered for ages, which initially I got over thanks to the recommendations of Modafinil and NAC. So as not to become dependent (specifically on Modafinil), I stopped taking that daily and am quite far out of the slump I was in (still not at full capacity though). Two days of Piracetam without Modafinil and I am just as functional. Wishy washy explanations but that's all I can really say so far.

I will conduct the 4.8g piracetam daily for at least 3 weeks unless I do happen to walk away with Sinemet and Keppra on my first drug clinic psych appt on Tues. That's probably unlikely though.

With regards to Choline... I take a a B-100 complex (Choline is contained in that?!) daily.

I would have like to have spent more time researching and responding more properly but I am rehearsing/recording full days this week and it's nackering me! I will contribute as much as possible.

Best,

S

 

[Merkan]

Didn't bother reading the thread, bit anyway i take 400mg of magnecium citrate (there are good and bad kinds of mg). Before bed, knocks me out and makes me a lot better and functional at work.

[onedayillsailagain]

Merkan: Thanks for adding that

Syntheso: How's the homework coming along? Hehe. Yes if one can remember the trip, it can definitely be an eye opener.
And I'm all too familiar with wishy washy explanations.. I'm curious to hear of your further experience with Piracetam!
B complexes usually contain Choline indeed, however the dose is negligible.
I'm sure there's some more info regarding Choline supplementation with Piracetam over at Longecity
Generally speaking, it is advised to add some decent amounts of Choline. One can also eat extra eggs.

Anyways, I'm tired so I'm keeping this one short. Let us know how things are going

[Syntheso]

Merkan: Thanks for adding that

Syntheso: How's the homework coming along? Hehe. Yes if one can remember the trip, it can definitely be an eye opener.

And I'm all too familiar with wishy washy explanations.. I'm curious to hear of your further experience with Piracetam!

B complexes usually contain Choline indeed, however the dose is negligible.

I'm sure there's some more info regarding Choline supplementation with Piracetam over at Longecity

Generally speaking, it is advised to add some decent amounts of Choline. One can also eat extra eggs.

Anyways, I'm tired so I'm keeping this one short. Let us know how things are going

Hello mate, how are you?

I've been squeezing in as much reading when I can but have been / will be recording 12 hour days till the end of the week. One thing I got into reading with relation to your writing above is the often overlooked supplementing of manganese as well as magnesium in relation to DA. I also wanted to read some specific studies about Magnesium and DA but haven't got around to it.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to continue the Piracetam trials because (fortunately) I have been prescribed Keppra and/or Sinemet :-) (side note: I will be making a post for UK HPPD'ers on this success). I have to do a 3 week control with no alt substances (inc alc if poss) so then after we can plot to see if they're working. I think I read you are doing the same?

 

[onedayillsailagain]

Syntheso: Ahh I'm so happy for you! That's great!
Yes I am indeed conducting more or less the same trial, albeit solely with  Keppra.

Are you getting qEEG's and VEP's as well? It would be great if there were 2 "case reports" succeeding each other! Two different doctors, countries and methods! Well I guess there's no urgency in researching supplementation now. However it would provide for possible future augmentation should the initial effects somewhat come short of needs.

I'm doing good! Weather is nice, and I'll be seeing a Neurologist shortly to get my tests done. I'll know more by Monday. I've just been watching TV shows to keep my mind occupied. Also I've given research a rest for a while; endless hours behind my laptop resulted in a minor back injury.
Anyways, glad to see you've found someone who's so willing to help you. I look forward to your updates.
I'll be making a separate thread/log once my own trial commences.
Cheers!

[etardnow]

Need some help choosing which magnesium to buy.

 

Magnesium 250mg or 500mg version (mg oxide)

or

Super magnesium 400mg (combination of aspartate, lactate, and citrate)

or 

Potassium and Magnesium 250 (monomagnesium 250mg, monopotassium aspartate 250mg)

 

Also B-Complex formula which includes:

B1, B2, Niacinamide, B6, folic acid, b12, biotin, calcium d-pantothenate.

The Bcomplex daily values are 1000-2000% except folic acid, is that ok?

 

All are from GNC. 

[onedayillsailagain]

Best you check over at Longecity.. Some claim L-Threonate is the best, others state it's no better than Malate and that Malate is the best. I personally use Magnesium Malate for ingestion and Sulphate for transdermal absorption.

And afaik what's important with vitamins is in what form they come. For instance: Vitamin C comes in different forms, but ascorbic acid is the best (IIRC).

[Syntheso]

Bumping this.

When pondering 5-HT and NMDA interactions as per my other thread, I became curious about the potential objective and subjective effects of taking Magnesium with LSD. I wondered if blocking the NMDAR might offer protection from long term damage, and what other things might happen.

 

It then occurred to me that perhaps Magnesium deficiency on taking [x psychoactive substance] might lead us to HPPD and remembered this thread. Magnesium is the second most common dietary deficiency after Vitamin D.

I want to read this article!! http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?C=ref&ID=3269

That there's a study suggests there was some sort of incline as to something.

Aha... there's some links between Magnesium deficiency and visual problems as well... time to get reading.

Also bump to the Piracetam and regulating Calcium. I am taking Piracetam again.

[Merkan]

I take 400mg of mg citrate each night. Made a huge difference. My vision is more focused and i would say it clears up stuff. Wont drop this anytime soon.

[wooshka]

What type of MG would you guys reccomend? and what dosage? I'm interested in trying this aswell as other multivitamins~ 

[khaozet]

I started taking 400 milligrams of magnesium citrate twice a day, just the other week. Unfortunately, it does't seem to have had any positive effects on me what so ever, but rather the opposite. Perhaps it's just me looking for symptoms, but it feels like that the magnesium is actually making things worse. What do you guys think? Does it take a few days or weeks to get an effect to begin with, or have you ever heard of cases where magnesium caused symptoms to worsen?

[VisualDude]

If Mg makes things worse, then try Calcium.  While too long a topic for this thread, the autonomic nervous system is broken in 2 parts: sympathetic and parasympathetic.  People tend to be dominant one way or another.  You can shift dominance with minerals.

 

Ca stimulates sympathetic nervous activity

Mg blocks sympathetic nerve impulses

K stimulates parasympathetic nervous system

 

Please let us know if this helps you

[Syntheso]

Lately I have been obsessed with thinking about magnesium, and how a nutritional deficiency in it is a likely factor in, if not the precursor to, HPPD. This is because, as you may know, magnesium is an antagonist of the NMDA receptor, it blocks, or 'protects', it, and balances the influx of calcium ions. Many psychoactive drugs are implicated in the NMDAR's, which play a role in addiction and long term memory. There is much to suggest that a magnesium deficiency leaves this receptor more vulnerable to stress, addiction, excitement, or, for example, the effects of LSD.

Reading; 
http://evolutionarypsychiatry.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/magnesium-and-brain.html  
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/131/9/2378.full 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2001142 
http://www.magnezyum.info/images/stres_2.pdf

This is a good book; Magnesium in the Central Nervous System - University of Adelaide. Section 3 most relevant, particularly Chapter 24 'Magnesium in drug abuse and addiction'.

I got really excited about magnesium and came across transdermal magnesium therapy. As those who will have supplemented magnesium will know, over 450mg and you have diarrhea, magnesium being a laxative when administered orally. However, if you want to megadose magnesium, you can do so by putting quite a heap in the bath and rubbing it into your skin. I know ODISA has done this with Epsom bath salts, but based on my reading, you really can (and should) up the concentration of magnesium in the bath. I recommend bathing with magnesium chloride and putting 1.5kg in a tub with you and soaking for a while (also you can combine it orally, my choice is magnesium l threonate). This is safe and effective, 'Transdermal Magnesium Therapy', Sircus. Doing this over days will raise the levels of magnesium in your blood much more profoundly than orally, by which a small percentage of magnesium is actually absorbed. This has been confirmed by studies. I am also experimenting with magnesium eye drops. More on this another time. Current conclusion of megadosing transdermally... makes for a very relaxing bath and sure to relieve and muscle pain, perhaps anxiolysis, but didn't do much for the visuals. I wasn't really expecting it to. I believe magnesium deficiency to potentially be a factor allowing for HPPD conditions to follow, but not that correcting it can reverse the damage.
 

To aid the excretion of histamine, I have started supplementing calcium. I considered how this might contribute to excitotoxicity (but then again, I haven't exactly been worried about activating my NMDA receptors). If anything, I have been feeling a bit more together since I started supplementing calcium. It got me thinking that perhaps excitotoxicity causes a calcium depletion and that this stops enough calcium getting to the places it needs. Calcium is a big player in the nervous system and a vital component of life. As Visual has noted above people tend to be dominant in either the sympathetic or parasympathetic nervous system and you can alter this with different minerals. Perhaps I was just slightly deficient in calcium. But a calcium depletion would make sense in excitotoxicity, in theory. I cannot find any study to back up that claim though, so just an idea..

 

There is also this claim; "Those who live in a fight-or-flight pattern much of the time are continuously losing calcium in their urine." http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/calcium.htm

Would be interested to hear other reports of supplementing calcium to see if it relieves 'feeling shit' at all. Depletion in different minerals can produce psychiatric symptoms, the basis of Carl Pfeiffer's book, 'Nutrition in Mental Illness'. So this could be a factor. I would advise supplementing with magnesium first to make sure your NMDA receptors have the support they might need. Maybe an hour before so it has enough time to enter the bloodstream.

[Puppeteer]

Where on earth do you get that much magnesium for a reasonable price?

[Syntheso]

You can get 10kg of Magnesium Chloride flakes for £40 on amazon. I wouldn't use the stuff that is made for oral consumption.