Chronic melatonin treatment reverses disruption of prepulse inhibition in rats.

[onedayillsailagain]

Thus, melatonin may be useful in the treatment of some disorders characterized by sensorimotor gating deficits such as schizophrenia.

source

 

I also recall reading of someone who recovered from HPPD with chronic high dose administration of Melatonin, but I can't seem to find the ... wait I didn't even try searching. Here we go (translation below):

 

Er bestaat niet iets zoals 'er in blijven hangen'. De stoffen die je laat trippen die worden wel afgebroken en kunnen niet maanden in je lichaam blijven. Wat wel zo is, is dat er veranderingen optreden in het brein. Deze kunnen wel zeker overgaan. Ik heb zelf zo'n anderhalf jaar geleden HPPD opgelopen na het veelvuldig gebruiken van Paddo's. Ik ben na een aantal maanden naar de huisarts gegaan. Ik had last van depressie, HPPD, dissociatiestoornissen, dwanggedachten en veel angststoornissen (angststoornissen zijn een onderdeel van HPPD). Ik kreeg melatonine mee van de huisarts en nu, anderhalf jaar later, ben ik er zo goed als vanaf. Ik heb geen depressie meer, geen dwanggedachten, hallucinaties zijn zo goed als verdwenen en ook de angststoornissen zijn verdwenen. 

In de DSM-IV (een handboek dat wordt gebruikt door psychiaters en psychologen wereldwijd) staat dat het enkele jaren kan duren voordat HPPD volledig verdwenen is. Een psychose is natuurlijk nog een stapje erger. Bij een psychose ben verbinding met de werkelijkheid kwijt en zul je niet meer goed kunnen nadenken over je situatie. Voor al die mensen die HPPD hebben: HET IS GENEESLIJK! Als je hallucinaties te erg worden ga dan naar de huisarts. Ik hoop dat naast mijn huisarts andere huisartsen ook weten dat je met elke dag een flinke dosis melatonine (5 mg) een heel eind komt. Als je merkt dat je je toch last hebt van een trip dagen na de trip zelf, dan raad ik aan om minstens een half jaar geen paddo's te gebruiken. Laat je brein even het normale evenwicht terugzoeken.

 

There's no such thing as being permafried. The substances which induced the trip are metabolized, and can't stay in your system for months. However, changes occur in the brain. These can definitely pass. I myself acquired HPPD 1.5 years ago after frequent use of mushrooms. I waited a few months before seeing the doctor. I had complaints of depression, HPPD, dissociations, OCD and many different flavours of anxiety (anxieties are a part of HPPD). The doctor gave me Melatonin, and now 1,5 years later, I am as good as cured. I don't have a depression anymore, no OCD, hallucinations are barely noticable, and the anxieties have gone as well. The DSM-IV states it can take several years before HPPD has cured completely. A psychosis is ofcourse somewhat worse. With a psychosis you have lost all touch with reality, and your insight is severely impaired. For all the people who have HPPD: IT'S CURABLE! If your hallucinations get too bad, go to your doctor. I hope that aside from my doctor, other doctors also know that you can get very far with a high daily dose (5mg) of Melatonin. If you notice that you're still pseudotripping a few days after a trip, I advize to abstain from mushrooms for at least half a year. Let your brain find its balance again.

HPPDonline source Original source

Sorry if the translation is a bit murky, I'm tired.

 

So there we have it, chronic administration of high dose (5mg in this case report), anecdotally has the potential to even cure HPPD. Theoretically, taken the proposed pathogenesis of disrupted sensory gating, then Melatonin could indeed at the very least mitigate some symptoms of HPPD. Moreover I have found several studies indicating its anxiolytic potential.

I myself just took 5mg's of Melatonin. Last night I smoked a bit of a joint, and woke up this morning with extreme visuals, with anxiety through the roof! Now, anxiety is gone, or at least very low, and my visuals have returned somewhat to baseline.

Anyways won't be smoking MJ anymore, that was a mistake I knew to avoid. Anyway I'm curious to see what 5mg of Melatonin does on a "normal" day. I suppose chronic administration would yield a greater effect.

[VisualDude]

Beats being tortured in a Russian tower ...

 

Melatonin does help sleep.  You take it just before bed.  If you take too much, then you'll have afternoon drowsiness.

 

Melatonin is also a top antioxidant, being both water and lipid solualbe, it gets to the brain as easily as elsewhere.  They even using it for radiation poisoning - google it for that purpose.

 

So it can be useful for detox.  It is made from serotonin and, likewise, is naturally highest when you go do bed.  I do find it make vision less sharp (slight contrast degrading), but a better nights sleep is worth it.  Am at 3mg before bed, which is slightly high for my age.

[onedayillsailagain]

Hehe depends.
I did have more vivid dreams with melatonin, but recall is murky as always.

Indeed I too have noticed "droopy focus" in my eyes, but I guess that doesn't really make such a big difference in our perception!

Anyways I thought the prepulse stuff was worth mentioning, recent literature considered. However, rat-to-human dose requires slightly complex calculations. Even if you would take 1/5th of the dose, that would still be 70-90mgs a day, for a period of at least a month. Now, Melatonin doesn't have an established LD50 (the rats just wouldn't die!), but I doubt taking said dosage would really make your day. One person took 150mg in a suicide attempt, only to find he had slight stomach discomfort and a psych evaluation waiting for him.

Visuals are actually slightly worse, but I'm less bothered by them. Perhaps tomorrow I'll try 30mg's just for laughs.

[onedayillsailagain]

I just realized the source link of the study just lead back to this page. Updated it to the pubmed source, should be fine now.

[VisualDude]

Wonder what the LD50 is for water?

[onedayillsailagain]

Water is considered the least toxic chemical compound, with aLD₅₀ of 90 g/kg or more in rats.^[3]

 

there's a conversion table (#1, pg 10) in an FDA Guidance (July 2005) entitled:

"Guidance for Industry Estimating the Maximum Safe Starting Dose in Initial Clinical Trials for Therapeutics in Adult Healthy Volunteers" 

U.S. Department of Health and Human Services 
Food and Drug Administration 
Center for Drug Evaluation and Research (CDER) 
July 2005 
Pharmacology and Toxicology

Table 1: Conversion of Animal Doses to Human Equivalent Doses Based on Body Surface Area 

for Rats: Divide Animal Dose (mg/kg) By 6.2 or Multiply Animal Dose (mg/kg) By 0.16 to convert to human dose (mg/kg). 
Performing the reverse operation, a recommended human dose of 5 mg/kg ~ 31 mg/kg in rats.

 

90*0.16=14.4g/kg
Conveniently L=Kg, so take an average 80Kg person: 80*14.4= 1152g=1.152Kg=1.152L

OK NEVERMIND. Obviously water was excluded from this conversion, haha.
Anyways 6-8 liters seems lethal from what I can collect.


I have no idea why I'm answering this.

Melatonin:
Took 10mgs two hours ago. Felt slightly hyper at first, now tired. Will update if anything significant is noticed in the morning.
Yesterday I took the 5mgs, and today my appointment with the drug clinic went almost without anxiety. It was pretty awesome.
Furthermore I noticed I was able to clearly see the patterns (to surprising detail, my clearest vision in a long time) in the wallpaper across from where I sit, which sadly is now covered by flashy shadowy liney stuff again. Perhaps with Melatonin, symptoms increase after acute dosing, but decrease the day after?
We'll see.

[VisualDude]

Water is considered the least toxic chemical compound, with aLD₅₀ of 90 g/kg or more in rats.^[3]

 

Mon Dieu!  they seem to know everything!  So, why is it the phone always rings as soon as I sit on the toilet???

[onedayillsailagain]

Because the amount of phone calls you receive in a lifetime is far greater than the amount of toilet time spent (~3 years apparantly).
You only notice the amount of phonecalls received on the toilet as being frequent because they are inconvenient. Ever noticed how many phonecalls you receive when having sex? Probably not, cause you switch the damn thing off. Or when you're waiting for something? Nope, because that is convenient.
Or maybe you have a pressure sensor hooked up to your toilet seat which calls your phone when you mount your throne.

Anyways!
Melatonin:
Slept great, but indeed feel groggy today. However, I am once more able to distinguish the patterns on my wallpaper, albeit with a little more phosphenery.
Also, it makes the waiting for appointments less tedious because I'm just kind of spaced out, in a mellow way. No effects on DP/DR though.. I mean it makes conversation easier apparantly, and has a subtle anxiolytic effect (sat on the bus anxiety free) but that's where it ends. But I think it is safe to say that Melatonin has had a positive impact on my visuals, on the condition I take it right before bed, the positive effects will linger in the morning. All other areas lack change, and perhaps you could say I feel more "fogged out". Anyways this wasn't meant to be a user experience, so all further significant changes will be added to my Keppra Quest log.

[VisualDude]

Do you find that anxiety affects your visuals in anyway?

 

Have you tried any serotonin increasing meds?  And if so, what result?

 

Melatonin is made from serotonin.  Both are highest before bed.  'Chill out' neurotransmitters - that is why they use serotonin for anxiety and depression.  Of course it blunts everything, not just 'negative' emotions.

 

 

 

 

 

Table 1: Conversion of Animal Doses to Human Equivalent Doses Based on Body Surface Area 

 

Curious, does a rat have more surface area per kg than a human?  Or less?

 

So, on a per kilogram basis, would the LD50 of water for a flounder be different than for a blowfish?  And where does the blobfish fit in?

 

 

 

[onedayillsailagain]

Anxiety makes the visuals go all batfeces.
Serotonin alterations did very little for me personally; 5-htp, fluoxetine, and tianeptine.. The latter of which seemed to mitigate anxiety a little for a day or two, but after that no effect.

 

Regarding the fish: I give up haha! I think the estimation was based on mammals.

Melatonin is still working like a charm for sleep, slept wonderful last night on 5mgs.

[VisualDude]

Great that you get good sleep.  See if you can back off to 3mgs ...  (Not that it is harmful at high doses - so if 5mg does it, do it)

 

Yes, since fish live in water, the LD50 was some silly fun.  Wonder what the LD50 of air is for humans ???  Did you know that oxygen is toxic to humans (seriously)?

 

When I've worked with serotonin, the only effects on visuals are less contrast and less sharpness (the oposite affect of dopamine).  However, serotonin 'destabilized' my emotions, mainly bad anxiety.  I can have brief periods of a strange calm (serotonin calm) but otherwise it seems to push things the wrong way.  One doc says I've already got more than plenty serotonin, so it isn't something to add to.  Dopamine helps to stabilize emotions as well as improve vision.  So ... thats just me.

 

Most (? if we had a good poll ?) people seem to report that anxiety makes their visuals worse.  I am one of the few that anxiety and visuals are not connected.  Dr A mentioned that HPPD people are particullarly sensitive to weed, fatigue and alcohol.  I haven't tried weed, but fatigue make 'movement-of-static-objects' worse.  Alcohol does not cause any visual problems, but depending on what I drink, when and how much, it can make anxiety worse the following day.  Just a little rambling ...

[onedayillsailagain]

Yeah had some weird nightmares (pre-sleep "flashes" of some scary face.. very vivid and disturbing) 2 nights ago, so I called it quits.. I'll consider cutting a tablet in half (2,5mg). Actually, I'll do that tonight.

Yep, learned that while getting my PADI. Oxygen intoxication also causes euphoria. Aparantly some girl freedived(freedove?) 160 meters without dying, so it should be quite high.

That strange calm I can relate to, I felt that on Tianeptine. Very unnatural feeling. Dopaminergic enhancement certainly helps me mood and cognition wise.
I think Ghormeh was working on a poll/survey? 
Glad they're not connected for you, sure makes for a cartwheel ride sometimes.
One hangover ago I felt extremely anxious shopping for breakfast, totally out of it. Borderline panic attack, but I pushed through anyway. Bacon is a strong motivator. But weed is, trust me, 100 times worse for HPPD.

Anyways, getting a bit off-topic here, so I'll go try some 2,5mg Melatonin.

[Ghormeh Sabzi]

I note some members report fluctuations that relate to anxiety levels - I'm not sure if it is most though. I will include a question like this in the survey so that we can get a more accurate answer. I am working on several things simultaneously (even though I'm a terrible multi-tasker) with the survey to come last. More news on the other things soon!

 

I had a short trial with meletonin for sleep problems myself many months ago, but I found that it made me very groggy the next day, much like weed used to, and so I gave it up. I'm sure you've done lots of reading on it, but the Mayo Clinic has a great section on it if you haven't seen it yet: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/melatonin/NS_patient-melatonin

 

P.S. New images of the blob fish are always welcome. Haven't seen that one before!

[onedayillsailagain]

I'm curious to know what you're working on! Maybe I can help?
Yes personally I believe Melatonin is very dose sensitive.
Tonight I slept great again with just 2,5mgs, no nightmary flashes.
Visuals are improved today, and my wallpaper once more has a distinguishable pattern, as opposed to a sea of vagueness.
That said, other symptoms are still present. Melatonin helps, but marginally.
Perhaps I'll try some Sulbutiamine later, to see if it helps with the "next day tiredness".

[Ghormeh Sabzi]

The first thing I'm doing is putting together a descriptive list of visual symptoms with images to accompany them. I will post when I have done this so that others can contribute to improve the list. I'm also putting together some other lists.

[VisualDude]

The first thing I'm doing is putting together a descriptive list of visual symptoms with images to accompany them. I will post when I have done this so that others can contribute to improve the list. I'm also putting together some other lists.

 

The 'Picture Assistance' is very important ... some of this stuff is very hard to describe (also, this is global so you have language and cultural differences),  Some you have to use GIFs/animation.

 

Look forward to what you come up with

[Ghormeh Sabzi]

Exactly. There are some images out there hidden away in the corners of the internet which I can use, but others will have to be made from scratch. I will not have time to do all of this, so I will make a list as best I can, and then make it public on a website where people can comment to contribute. After that I'll publish the completed list.

[onedayillsailagain]

If youre looking to make pictures, I suggest trying out Paint.NET
It's free and pretty diverse in its abilities.
When your list is finished, perhaps I can have a go at making these. Allthough those skills are also largely lost, it wouldn't hurt to try.